Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:52 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:38 am
Ok. But the perplexity remains. Do you say the same thing assuming that for absurd the etymology of Capernaum means really "lower regions" ? I doubt.
I do not know what you mean here. (There is something awry with the syntax.)
My point is that only because you know a priori from other sources that Capernaum doesn't mean "lower regions" you conclude that etymology didn't matter to Heracleon.
No. Heracleon simply did not write that the linguistic interpretation/translation was the extreme regions. He wrote that Capernaum represented them, and in context it is clear enough that the basis of that representation is the descent. Nothing in the Greek wording would suggest anything etymological about Capernaum in the first place. No need to invent a wild goose chase to go on.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:56 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:52 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:38 am
Ok. But the perplexity remains. Do you say the same thing assuming that for absurd the etymology of Capernaum means really "lower regions" ? I doubt.
I do not know what you mean here. (There is something awry with the syntax.)
I meant: "would you say the same thing if Capernaum means really extreme regions?"

But you answer so:
No. Heracleon simply did not write that the linguistic interpretation/translation was the extreme regions. He wrote that Capernaum represented them, and in context it is clear enough that the basis of that representation is the descent. Nothing in the Greek wording would suggest anything etymological about Capernaum in the first place. No need to invent a wild goose chase to go on.
Ok.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:03 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:56 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:52 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:38 am
Ok. But the perplexity remains. Do you say the same thing assuming that for absurd the etymology of Capernaum means really "lower regions" ? I doubt.
I do not know what you mean here. (There is something awry with the syntax.)
I meant: "would you say the same thing if Capernaum means really extreme regions?"
In that case, I would assume that the etymology influenced the interpretation, sure. The coincidence would be too great.
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davidbrainerd
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:04 am

The real question is could someone reading in Greek reading Capernaum as a Greek compound word come up with a Greek etymology that would sound anything like Heracleon's claim?

Also, could someone stripping the vowels come up with it in Hebrew or Aramaic?

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:39 am

Tried. Failed.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:45 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:39 am
Tried. Failed.
Ditto.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:14 am

(my greatly admired) mythicist Gordon Rylands gives another explanation of the presence of the name 'Capernaum' just at the beginning of the Gospel:
The name is not found in any existing document older than the Gospels; but Josephus [Wars of the Jews, 3, 10, 8.] says that there was a fountain called Capernaum not far from the Lake of Gennesareth. This statement, read in connection with two verses of Zechariah [13:1-2], is illuminating:

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

The writer appropriately gave to the place where the work f cutting off the names of the idols ad putting an end to uncleanness was supposed to have begun the name of a fountain. The place itself was in the land, not of Galilee, but of phantasy.
The first case of healing of this kind is located in a synagogue; but that is exceptional. Jews were as liable to mental derangement as Gentiles, but they were not spiritually sick in the same way. And yet they were not all completely “clean”. As we have seen, Christians reproached Jews with their worship of angels and of “stoicheia”. Aristides wrote concerning the Jews: ....
(Beggining of Gnostic Christianity, p. 249)

This gives new evidence for the hypothesis that the Earliest Gospel was based strongly on the life and preaching of Paul, given the fact that also Paul had to combat the evil influence of ''stoicheia'' in Galatia.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:27 am

What if a marcionite antithesis is at work here? The Scriptures had predicted the destruction of the Pagan idols precisely when ''there shall be a fountain opened'', viz. at the fountain of Capernaum. But the purification regarded a synagogue!!! This is true IRONY, isn't?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:41 am

I have found another interesting exegesis about Heracleon and Capernaum in an Italian article (Daniele Bertini, Divenire Dio La teologia giovannea del maestro gnostico Eracleone).

I translate the part of interest:

According to the traditional interpretation, the element of economic innovation would be the event of Logos's earthly coming [Cfr. M.Simonetti, Eracleone e Origene, art.cit., p. 135; E.Corsini (a cura di), Commento al Vangelo di Giovanni di Origene, op.cit., p. 393, n. 15; M.Simonetti (a cura di), Testi gnostici in lingua latina e greca, op.cit., p. 462.]. The reason I propose to support this identification is, in my opinion, very convincing: Capernaum represents the lowest and most degrading part of the cosmos, its pure materiality, as it faces stagnant waters. In fact, gnosis advocates the symbolic equivalence of stagnant water, a place of spiritual and material death [See Gospel of Philip 77:9-18]. An additional motivation is also advanced by E. Corsini: Heracleon may also have recalled the doctrine of the Gnostic teacher Marcion, who did put in this step the beginning of the new Christian economy.
(my bold)


Where is the evidence that Capernaum is before ''stagnant waters'' ?

I read further:
in pre-nicean age both proto-catholics and gnostics identified the beginning of Christian revelation in baptism at the Jordan. In the descent to Capernaum, the incarnation of the Logos would not be prefigured, but the descending of Holy Spirit, the companion of sizigia of the superior Christ, on the Logos present in Jesus at the time of John's baptism. In order to substantiate his interpretation, Navascués uses two eresiological sources: the Valentinian doctrine of Mark about the generation and baptism of Jesus; the extra-pleromatic desensitization-ascension characterization of the messenger of the superior Christ-the Holy Spirit. A joint reading of these passages justifies the following doctrinal reconstruction: Heracleon sees a mention of the auroral event of the new economy in the descent of Jesus towards Capernaum. In the church of origin this event was generally identified in baptism at the Jordan. The allusions affirmed by the gnostic teacher means that a descent is also taking place in this event. Who descends? At this point Mark's doctrine intervenes: during the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the paraclete, the consoler, descends on the incarnate Logos. This Holy Spirit is descended from the voyage of Jesus narrated in John 2:12. The principle of prefiguration is the consolatory nature of the Savior sent by the superior Christ-the Holy Spirit. The Savior does, in fact, a consolatory function in regard to Sophia who is expelled by the Pleroma, descending on her, and ascending with her in the final redemption: the peregrination of Jesus towards Capernaum acquires then the nature of an image parallel to that of the relationship between the two eons , determined by the movement that leads from one cosmic place to another, according to the hierarchical disposition of the environments occupied by these, since the Savior descends to console Sophia, as Jesus, the consoler, descends on the eternal "land of consolation" of Capernaum, alluded by his ethymology according to the testimony of Origen. The descent to Capernaum, because of its indication of the principle of consolation and the beginning of the new economy, is thus a middle term of the Savior's identification of an extrapleromatic agent on Sophia and the Holy Spirit acting economically in baptism.
(my bold)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:53 am

So Josephus about Capernaum:
8. The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth; its nature is wonderful as well as its beauty; its soil is so fruitful that all sorts of trees can grow upon it, and the inhabitants accordingly plant all sorts of trees there; for the temper of the air is so well mixed, that it agrees very well with those several sorts, particularly walnuts, which require the coldest air, flourish there in vast plenty; there are palm trees also, which grow best in hot air; fig trees also and olives grow near them, which yet require an air that is more temperate. One may call this place the ambition of nature, where it forces those plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together; it is a happy contention of the seasons, as if every one of them laid claim to this country; for it not only nourishes different sorts of autumnal fruit beyond men's expectation, but preserves them a great while; it supplies men with the principal fruits, with grapes and figs continually, during ten months of the year (8) and the rest of the fruits as they become ripe together through the whole year; for besides the good temperature of the air, it is also watered from a most fertile fountain. The people of the country call it Capernaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish as well as that lake does which is near to Alexandria. The length of this country extends itself along the banks of this lake that bears the same name for thirty furlongs, and is in breadth twenty, And this is the nature of that place
(Jewish War, 3:10:8)

Why are these waters ''stagnant'' ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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