Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

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Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:34 am

So Ory about Capernaum:
e) CAPHARNAUM
Luke continues in 4/31 his sentence started and interrupted in 3/1; he writes "(Jesus) went down to Capernaum the city of Galilee". He kept the verb descend used by Marcion to indicate a descent from the sky but it specifies "city of Galilee" in order to locate on earth the event. Now, Tertullian explained (C.M., 4/7) "which means in reality (that he descended) from the heaven of the Creator where he had already descended from his"; this testimony involuntarily favorable to the marcionite thesis is very important.
(my bold)

So this is a kind of partial 'smoking gun' that reveals the celestial location of the death of Jesus in the previous Gospel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:44 am

Note that Mark has Jesus who ''enters'' in Capernaum with James and John sons of Zebedee. But Mark doesn't specify ''of Galilee'' and he uses the verb ''enter'' and not ''descend'' as in Luke (and Mcn).

It is evident the effort to distance Capernaum from any symbolism linked to the archontic territory and to the descend of Jesus on it.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:06 pm

I know we decided that 'signify' here doesn't necessarily imply etymology but here's a curious parallel I just noticed which wasn't mentioned. Notice what Against Marcion says here:
Marcion premises that in the fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius he came down into Capernaum, a city of Galilee—from the Creator's heaven, of course, into which he had first come down out of his own. Did not then due order demand that it should first be explained how he came down from his own heaven into the Creator's?

Anno quintodecimo principatus Tiberiani proponit eum descendisse in civitatem Galilaeae Capharnaum, utique de caelo creatoris, in quod de suo ante descenderat. Ecquid ergo ordinis fuerat ut prius de suo caelo in creatoris descendens describeretur?
Curious the proximity of Capernaum and 'heaven.' Moreover the argument about descending through the Creator's heaven seems wholly out of place here. Yes I know that Tertullian says things like this. But the chain of logic here is quite strange.

1. a citation of "fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius' [Luke 3.1] but notice Vulgate Anno autem quintodecimo imperii Tiberii Cæsaris
2. then the emphasis that he descended into a city of Galilee, Capernaum
3. "certainly from the heaven of the Creator" because apparently the Marcionites assumed he came from another heaven - "his own"
4. and then a full discussion of Marcion needing to explain how he could claim Marcion passed through one heaven from another

Just think about it for a moment. There are reports the Marcionite gospel had a descent from Jerusalem at the beginning of the gospel (see other thread). So if the author is citing Luke 3:15 he is not citing what is in the Marcionite gospel - he is citing what is in his own gospel. Indeed the traditional understanding that the opening words of the Marcionite gospel is preserved here seems a little far fetched.

But the author is making the case that there is a descent directly from heaven to Capernaum. As Abbott notes:
According to Tertullian, Marcion so mutilated the Gospel of Luke as to make it appear that Jesus came down "from heaven, straight to the synagogue" in Capernaum . Heracleon, dealing with the Johannine "going down to Capernaum," said that "the beginning of another dispensation was indicated, since 'went down' is not without significance." He added that Capernaum signifies "the uttermost parts of the Cosmos, the regions of matter into which He 'came-down .'"
So there is a parallel. But here if the parallel - and if there was a lost ur-text of Against Marcion - then we'd imagine that the author was Heracleon and he was saying that "went down to Capernaum" is a reference of Jesus descending from the highest heaven to the lower heaven. Curious.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:35 pm

I think I might have made some progress on this subject. I will let other members of the forum judge whether I am merely arguing on behalf of pre-existent ideas.

I can't deny that I suspect that Against Marcion Book 4 goes back to a Greek original. That's a pet project or whatever you want to call it. I have notied that the discussion of Jesus's descent seems rather sudden and out of place in a discussion of Luke 3:15. What if the original text followed from what is preserved in the previous chapter? Let's put the discussion of Luke 3:15 in its original context:
Marcion lays it down that there is one (alium esse) Christ who in the time of Tiberius was revealed by a god formerly unknown, for the salvation of all the nations (a deo quondam ignoto revelatus sit in salutem omnium gentium); and another who is destined by God the Creator (alium qui a deo creatore) to come for the re-establishment of the Jewish kingdom (restitutionem Iudaici status). Between these he sets up a great and absolute divide (scindit), such as that between justice and kindness, between law and gospel, between Judaism and Christianity. From this will also derive our prescription (Hinc erit et nostra praescriptio), by which I lay it down that the Christ of a different god has no right to have anything in common with the Creator; and again, that Christ must be adjudged to be the Creator's if he is found to have administered the Creator's ordinances, fulfilled his prophecies, supported his laws, given actuality to his promises, revived his miracles, given new expression to his judgements, and reproduced the lineaments of his character and attributes. I request you, my reader, always to bear in mind this undertaking, this prescription (, and begin to be aware that Christ belongs either to Marcion or the Creator.

In the fifteenth year of the principate of Tiberius he proposes (God? some ms = deum others eum) came down into Capernaum, a city of Galilee—from the Creator's heaven, of course, into which he had first come down out of his own.1 Did not then due order demand that it should first be explained how he came down from his own heaven into the Creator's? For why should I not pass censure on such matters as do not satisfy the claims of orderly narrative, <but let it> always tail off in falsehood? So let us ask once for all a question I have already discussed elsewhere (ecquid ergo ordinis), whether, while coming down through the Creator's territory and in opposition to him.
The Latin root of scindit is scindo which is the equivalent of the Greek σχίζω. Is it coincidence that during the baptism narrative a cosmic 'tear' is mention with the descent of Christ:

καὶ εὐθὺς ἀναβαίνων ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος εἶδεν σχιζομένους τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα ὡς περιστερὰν καταβαῖνον εἰς αὐτόν [Mark 1.10]

McDonald notes that the parallel use of the terminology is followed by Matthew with respect to the tearing of the veil but not the baptism. https://books.google.com/books?id=SbpVq ... rk&f=false It is very curious especially given Luke's preservation of Jesus announcing that he brings 'division' to the world. If we understand that Marcion understood Christ - not Jesus - came from heaven and that a tear or a schism took place in the heavens this understanding might still be lurking in the fragments of the ur-text in Against Marcion Book 4.

But then just when you begin to give up hope to discover a path ... it appears.

Snow notes that the context for Mark 1:10's vision of the heaven's rending at the appearance of Christ is Isa 64.1 https://books.google.com/books?id=mzNQD ... ns&f=false

Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!

The Hebrew is unspectacular:

לוּא-קָרַעְתָּ שָׁמַיִם יָרַדְתָּ, מִפָּנֶיךָ הָרִים נָזֹלּוּ.

But the Targum perhaps provides a clue:

כַד שַלַחת רֻגזָך בְאִשָתָא אִתמְסִיאַת יַמָא מַיָא מְלַחְכָא אִשָתָא לְהוֹדָעָא שְמָך לְסָנְאֵי עַמָך מִן קְֹדָמָך עַמְמַיָא זָעוּ

As Murray notes the root here of שַלַחת means 'naked' and 'sent' (apostle). https://books.google.com/books?id=ONJlu ... em&f=false Christ is undoubtedly related to the ultimate appearance of the apostle Paul.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:33 am

It is also worth noting that Ben Hayyim (and later taken over by Tal) notes that the principal meaning of kpr in Samaritan Aramaic is 'habitation' not 'village' - https://books.google.com/books?id=6K-9C ... al&f=false If there was an ur-Aramaic gospel ...

Now I have to ask Benny how kpr is used in the literature (esp Marqe) to mean 'habitations.' Can it mean or does it ever refer to heaven?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:42 am

The example given by Ben Hayyim/Tal is interesting כפר תמרתא = the place where there are date trees.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:03 am

It's curious too that the opening lines of Mark (= Isaiah 40:3) have a rooting in comfort. Remembering that Isaiah 40:3 has a root in comforting suddenly changes the context of the opening lines of the gospel:
Comfort, comfort (נַֽחֲמ֥וּ נַֽחֲמ֖וּ) my people,
says your God.
Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and proclaim to her
that her hard service has been completed,
that her sin has been paid for,
that she has received from the Lord’s hand
double for all her sins.
A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord;
make straight (יַשְּׁרוּ) in the desert
a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough shall become straight (הֶֽעָקֹב֙ לְמִישׁ֔וֹר),
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
and all people will see it together.
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
If the Marcionite gospel began - as multiple sources suggest in the desert between Jericho and Jerusalem. This is the place that Christ came down. Then Christ is clearly 'the straightener' the one who makes straight adding credence to the LXX translation of yashar with chrestos. It is also the homiletic root of the mystical name Israel. Notice the play on words in Isaiah between the root of Jacob and the root of Israel.

I would argue that the so-called Marcionite descent from heaven of Chrestos (this we know from the Deir Ali inscription) in a desert area between Jerusalem and Jericho (this we know from the 7th century Syriac fragment in the British library and other sources) - i.e. the beginning of the Marcionite gospel is explicitly developed in unmistakable terms from Isaiah 40 - not just Isaiah 40:4 as our opening words of Mark attest but clearly and unmistakably to the entire context of Isaiah 40:1 - 3 - down to the identification of Jerusalem as the 'habitation' or 'residing place of comfort'

In other words, 'Capernaum' is the place between Jericho and Jerusalem, the place of the descent of the 'straightening one' (the angel who gave his name to Jacob). The opening lines of the Marcionite gospel have Jesus appear here because Isaiah mentioned or alluded to a desert appearance of the Chrestos or the angel Yashar-el/Israel. He must go straight to Jerusalem and 'speak' of the coming comfort (= the destruction of the temple). It is likely that any baptism narrative would have taken place at the pools where demons were understood to have been imprisoned by Solomon when he manufactured the original temple hence the name given to the place beth saida (demon house):

I got me sharim and sharoth, and the delights of the sons of men, shidah (שידה) and shidoth (וְשִׁדּוֹת) [Eccel 2.8]

Hence other reports (Ephrem) that the Marcionite gospel began with a visit to Bethsaida. We should not ignore Eznik's comments that the Marcionites prefer the Hebrew text of the OT rather than the LXX. He condemns them for this. The Marcionite worldview seems to be rooted in a Hebrew or Aramaic text of various Jewish scriptural works.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:24 am

I would argue that the so-called Marcionite descent from heaven of Chrestos (this we know from the Deir Ali inscription) in a desert area between Jerusalem and Jericho
From Jerusalem to Jericho or vice versa?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:27 am

For those who are interested - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=859

Now I am struck by the possibility that the Marcionite gospel had the following scenario:

1. that Jesus and Christ were two different entities (adoptionist)
2. that Jesus came to be baptized at the Siloam pool, the pool with the demons, and Christ came upon him and entered into him
3. that the straightening of the hand narrative which was included into the pool baptism in Jerusalem (cf Chrysostom and other sources) was made to indicate who Jesus was (i.e. the one who straightens = yashar)
4. that Jesus was the one whom the prophets predicted (i.e. that the one to come would be named Joshua as the Dositheans claimed)
5. but the Jews killing and crucifixion of this man killed their hope for a physical redemption in the world
6. that this was the plan of the most high God because it would unleash or release Christ in the world (secret plan).

Something like this. Notice that Tertullian does use 'Christ' to describe 'another' who is different from Christ. I think 'Jesus' and 'Christ' are the original pairing here. With Jesus dead on the Cross it is the end of Jewish messianic hope. There can't be a more anti-Jewish message than that. This was the true Joshua, the one who was like Moses, the one who would come, he was your hope and you killed him.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:31 am

From Jerusalem to Jericho or vice versa?
It has to be the desert to Jerusalem if Isaiah 40 is the template. He has to make straight the crooked places (hence the clearing of the tables in John).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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