Re: Dating of the Fourth Gospel: Nongbri
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:55 am
Giuseppe,
The persecution, and we have to be careful with the meaning of the word at the time of writing, just as we must be with the word witness (martyr), almost certainly means here to be confronted with hostility and challenged, and even chased out of the building. At the time of the writing of the Gospels, and most of the NT (if not all), the word had not acquired it's modern understanding, just as martyr had not. We tend to apply post-Decian era meanings in the text. And this is an understandable error, as church historians and pious Christian scribes back dated sanctioned state persecutions to be as early as Claudius, even interpolating works of non-Christian historians to fit the legends and tales they were indoctrinated with.
The term "to kill" used in John has usages both symbolic and literal. And John uses them back and forth. His Jesus speaks of himself as life and life giving. So to be denied him is to be killed - at least spiritually. To me the meaning of the passage is clear. The Jewish Christians or proto-Orthodox type Christians have become dominant in the churches (the physical compounds/buildings are referred to as Synagogues in John) that John knows and are starting to enforce their rule, not allowing teachers of John's version of Christianity to speak, by excommunicating them (ἀποσυνάγωγος). We see clearly this is related to confessing John's version of Jesus in 9:22, 12:42, and 16:2. Fear of "the Jews" (Jewish Christians) is tied in John to those who confess John's Jesus. This is not a Jewish vs Christian argument in John 16:2, but Christian vs Christian argument
The persecution, and we have to be careful with the meaning of the word at the time of writing, just as we must be with the word witness (martyr), almost certainly means here to be confronted with hostility and challenged, and even chased out of the building. At the time of the writing of the Gospels, and most of the NT (if not all), the word had not acquired it's modern understanding, just as martyr had not. We tend to apply post-Decian era meanings in the text. And this is an understandable error, as church historians and pious Christian scribes back dated sanctioned state persecutions to be as early as Claudius, even interpolating works of non-Christian historians to fit the legends and tales they were indoctrinated with.
The term "to kill" used in John has usages both symbolic and literal. And John uses them back and forth. His Jesus speaks of himself as life and life giving. So to be denied him is to be killed - at least spiritually. To me the meaning of the passage is clear. The Jewish Christians or proto-Orthodox type Christians have become dominant in the churches (the physical compounds/buildings are referred to as Synagogues in John) that John knows and are starting to enforce their rule, not allowing teachers of John's version of Christianity to speak, by excommunicating them (ἀποσυνάγωγος). We see clearly this is related to confessing John's version of Jesus in 9:22, 12:42, and 16:2. Fear of "the Jews" (Jewish Christians) is tied in John to those who confess John's Jesus. This is not a Jewish vs Christian argument in John 16:2, but Christian vs Christian argument