Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

In question there was the same survival of the Jewish people. In time of dangerous collective threat, less dissention you admit, better it is.

Paradoxically, YHWH is more strong after the 70 and the cult of angels disappear.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

The porcupine closes itself only when it is threatened.

At the same way, the Jews "tightened the ranks" after the 70 to survive in a new hostile world. And this meant: worship only of YHWH, tabula rasa of any angel or archangel inferior to YHWH, even if his name was "YHWH-saves".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

But even the notion of a Creator God smacks of post-second century monarchianism. Genesis specifically references the plural 'Elohim' when creation takes place - so there are many. The very fact that Tertullian uses the Latin creator belies a post-second century POV in my opinion. You can tell for instance that Simon and his early heretical followers have 'angels' create the world. This is consistent with a Jewish or Samaritan heresy based on the text of Genesis. It becomes heretical to suggest that because of a change in official Roman policy in the late second early third century where all religions and philosophical schools were 'encouraged' to mirror a world ruler in heaven. That's why I doubt the whole Marcion narrative. It fits late second century concerns not late first century realities.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

I always emphasize to people to revisit the ur-Exodus text's account of the Sinai theophany. I recently did this with my son while watching Close Encounters of the Third Kind (which he found very boring). The god seen on the mountain is not 'god almighty.' There is another voice (and hence another god) speaking from heaven. This is clearly the unknown God of the Marcionites. Any other suggestion simply does not make any sense and does not take into account the actual evidence that shaped early Christianity. Even the two dispensations of the ten commandments fits into an early Christian narrative. Imperial voices always make it a referendum on 'the ruler' - there can be power above the ruler of the world or else you are a seditious traitor. I would not be surprised if there was some original identification of Yahweh with Mitra. But that evidence is likely lost to us. All that's left to us is the Samaritan sect of the Dustan - https://books.google.com/books?id=E8ZJA ... si&f=false - the 'friends' of the 'Friend' of the human race Mitra. On Yahweh and Mitra - https://books.google.com/books?id=uf2RV ... ra&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=mxrgA ... ra&f=false
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ok with Genesis's Elohim but you should recognize that the Jews were monotheists in the first century CE and that any reading of Elohim in the plural was absent for that time. The monotheism may seem offensive when it is used as a weapon (as it was the case after the 70).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't think the Jews ever actually worshiped a single all powerful god. The perfect analogy again is in ancient Persia where Ahura Mazda was so remote that the cult of Mitra became persuasive within a 'monotheistic' or perhaps dualistic tradition. Anahita and other divinities must always have been there too. Pure monotheism is unnatural.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

But again whenever you bring up Patristic vitriol against Marcion which assumes a single all powerful god you are essentially dealing with late second century writings influenced by contemporary Imperial monarchianism. Not really helpful for understanding what Marcion believed or preserved from a much earlier period.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

I know this will be politically incorrect but many POV suffer from this 'retroactive' analysis. Slavery is wrong. But when you look at the world in the 16th century or whenever slavery was taking off what contemporary 'brakes' were in place to prevent the capture of foreigners for service as slaves? Both the Jewish and Christian writings accepted slavery. Slavery existed in the Roman Empire. There was a 'conservative' precedent. In order to realize the horrors of slavery we had to get beyond the influence of the Judeo-Christian tradition, from the established moral compass of the time. You can't look back and say 'they (the participants in the slave economy) should have known better.' In order to get to realizing how wrong slavery is we as a culture had to liberate ourselves from the sole influence of the Bible which accepted this moral outrage. Thus when we reconstruct the times we tend to 'retroject' a moral Christian sensibility which surely could not have existed when slavery first got off the ground. Same with Marcion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

At best one can say that 'Marcionism' was the reaction of efforts on 'the other side' of Judaism or Christianity to define the religion as monotheistic or monarchian. In other words, you become a Marcionite when your opponent says 'the Almighty ruler of the world' and you say 'no he's not.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:34 am At best one can say that 'Marcionism' was the reaction of efforts on 'the other side' of Judaism or Christianity to define the religion as monotheistic or monarchian. In other words, you become a Marcionite when your opponent says 'the Almighty ruler of the world' and you say 'no he's not.'
precisely. That is what I meant in my previous posts in this thread. Once you assume as historical the reluctance to adore YHWH if the requisite for his cult is (after the 70) to give up the worship of the angel Jesus (as of any angel) then the possibility is open that who wrote the Earliest Gospel was someone who hated YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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