Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

I have tried to make people interested in my Jewish background. When I was younger I tried to convince black women that being Jewish was like being black - no luck. I have, on occasion tried to make reference to my 'Jewishness' in the course of dealing with white people - no one really cares (except perhaps to nod approvingly while thinking 'so that explains why he is so annoying').

My point is that no one gives a flying f--- about Jews except for Jews. Maybe ambitious people admire the 'work ethic' that Jews have and their love of learning - whatever. But it is hard for me to understand why massive numbers of proselytes wanted to become Jewish in the first century. The food is bad, the women hideous (unless they are mixed), the men someone whiny and effeminate, prone to disputations and disagreements - you don't even get full weekends to party. So why was the Common Era so different? Why did people adopt an interest in Judaism?

My guess is that it was the claim that God tabernacled with his people - viz. the gospel story of a god who secretly came among his people and was brutally punished and ultimately - a god who exacted revenge. Even Dostoevsky knew the visitation narrative was interesting. The gospel story if it is a story of a divine visitation is a good drama, it is a fascinating literary narrative. It has a sophisticated sense of irony - viz. that the most pious of ancient religions weren't really that pious, didn't recognize their god.

But ultimately there was the 'real history' of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. No one could argue with that. The destruction of 70 CE proved the gospel story was real and historical.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:06 pm I have tried to make people interested in my Jewish background.
All Jews do, because they want to be worshipped as some master race. Yet what they contribute to humanity is mostly division and war. Their superiority is only in being better manipulators of blind Christians who they control into giving them special status.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

The destruction of 70 CE proved the gospel story was real and historical.
Why just the destruction of 70 CE and not that of the 135 CE ?

Prof Vinzent said that the War of 135 CE was more destructive than the war of the 70 CE.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

My guess is that it was the claim that God tabernacled with his people - viz. the gospel story of a god who secretly came among his people and was brutally punished and ultimately - a god who exacted revenge.
Don't you ignore these Gnostic Jews who hated the Creator God as author of the evil in the world?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes just like a historian ignores the black members of the KKK - they never existed.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

But here's my difficulty with the Bar Kochba hypothesis. Chekhov's gun. Why would you set a story 'mystically' about the destruction of Jerusalem before the destruction of Jerusalem if it was about a war 65 years after the destruction. Doesn't make sense. Myths 'work' because they function aesthetically. My son for instance has to work hard on his calcio squadra. They said if you do this and that for the next few months we will move you up to the top team. I called this period 'the labors of Hercules.' The reason the myth survived is because it is applicable to situations. The myth works because it seems 'true' aesthetically.

Having Jesus crucified before the 70 CE destruction but 'really about' the slaughter of Jews outside of Jerusalem 65 years later does not work aesthetically. It's like trying to make love to your wife under a picture of your mother beside the bed (a scene a remember seeing in an Ugo Tognazzi film back in the day where he is a therapist and one of his patients has erectile dysfunction).

It just helps make us feel comfortable about not having gospel information for the gap between 70 CE and the period in the mid second century we have material. But that isn't surprising in a crypto-tradition. If Christianity was as Celsus says a 'secret association' then why is it surprising there is a long period we have no 'above ground' information about the tradition? All these controversies aren't that controversial.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:57 am Yes just like a historian ignores the black members of the KKK - they never existed.
Harold Bloom ''born in 1930, son of a Yiddish-speaking family that would lose dozens of relatives in the Holocaust'' says:
It is absurd to talk about a Judeo-Christian tradition. I say this in spite of the political good that this does for the State of Israel or the remnant of Jewry. Nevertheless, it is an absurd fiction. There is no Judeo-Christian tradition. There cannot be.
...and still:
There's the essence of a Gnostic's stance. A god of this world, worshipped under the names of Jesus, Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, call it what you will, God the Father, the Holy Ghost--which by the way is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible, it's a weird importation--they are cons who rule a ruined world.
(my bold)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

Hardly the same thing. What you are suggesting is patently absurd namely a substantial group of Jews who hated their god so much that they developed a myth that he came down to earth, was hated by the Jews and was crucified by them. The difficulty isn't just that this isn't very likely as a social or cultural phenomenon because it hasn't happened before - not even the Donmeh. But the difficulty is because - as with most of your lines of inquiry - it simply doesn't have any logical coherence. Why would 'Yahweh-hating Jews' make the Jews who punished Yahweh deserved victims of their hatred of Yahweh viz. the destruction of the temple? Surely the moral of the story would be the Jews who treated Yahweh so wickedly would be rewarded if indeed it was all 'a myth.' With myth you have licence to arrange the facts to suit your narrative. You'd have to distinguish between temple-hating but Yahweh admiring Jews. That's a possibility - the Samaritans for one and likely the Dositheans specifically. But why would a community of Yahweh-hating Jews make a myth where the hatred of Yahweh demonstrated on the part of the law abiding Jews is deemed as reprehensible or at least justifying the destruction of the temple? The destruction of the temple and its sacrifices were the abomination not the God of the Jews.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Secret Alias »

And the difficulty of the traditional understanding of Marcion and his 'stranger god' is that the irony of having the Jews condemn their own god is lost and surely irony is at work here. Why would the Jews be condemned for rejecting a god they had never heard of before or who had no connection to their religion? It doesn't make any sense and more importantly isn't a good ground out of which to develop an extremely popular myth. In order to gain popularity there had to be a punch line. The punch line surely was the Jews who claimed to be so pious and knowledgeable about god were really impious and ignorant. That gets a laugh, that works. But you lose that if there is no logical congruence which is the case if you introduce a wholly unheard of god who the Jews have no reason to know anything about.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the Destruction of Jerusalem Proof of Jesus the God's Existence?

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:52 am Why would the Jews be condemned for rejecting a god they had never heard of before or who had no connection to their religion?
Because they (more and more after the 70 CE) wanted the worship of the Creator God and only of Him. No more angels, please. Not more Jesus (an angel). Only the Highest. The monarchianism was a need to unify more strictly the Jews in a world post-70. "Marginal Jews" are not more tolerated.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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