Marcion and Monarchia

[Giuseppe]

At the time of Celsus the Christian secrecy could be only a feature of eccentric Gnostic sects as the Valentinians, viz. their secrecy is not evidence of major antiquity but marks only the decline of the original propagandistic zeal. Celsus described only the Christians of the his time and their claims. He shows that the Great Church wasn't still Great, after all, and is satisfied by this.

[Giuseppe]

Garbage in garbage out ... but once again no actual evidence.

But can you at least recognize the existence of this proto-gospel hater of YHWH?

http://vridar.org/2013/12/11/the-devils ... l-of-john/

Once you remove the dualism from marcionism, you have even the burden of proof of the total absence of Gnostic Christians (sic).

[Secret Alias]

But again this isn't evidence. Just admit it, you are basing your opinion on evidence per se. Only bluster.

[Giuseppe]

For me it is already a sufficient evidence the Vinzent's exegesis of the our gospels as anti-marcionite reactions.

And what about your interpretation of the epistles of Paul? If you move them in 2 Century, you will do so surely for the Detering's arguments, and therefore you will appeal to Marcion again. But is even possible a not-dualist interpretation of forged Pauline epistles where it is said explicitly that the "god of this world" is concealing the reality ?

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.it/2016/0 ... ction.html

[Secret Alias]

You're not even making sense any more

[Giuseppe]

Ephesians 3:9King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid by God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

this is the marcionite reading. Please, if you have courage, give me a not-dualist interpretation of that passage. Clearly I am asking the impossible to you. That passage can only be read in a Gnostic way.

[Secret Alias]

But these sorts of arguments can't 'evidence' to understand the nature of Marcionite gatherings strictly speaking. There isn't such a thing as a 'Marcionite reading' per se unless the Church Father (Epiphanius excluded or severely questioned because he is out and out a liar and can't be trusted) says 'here is a Marcionite reading.' And even then WHAT IT MEANS how it is to be interpreted is up for debate. Celsus saying 'Christian's gather in secret associations' is a much stronger piece of evidence. Almost unambiguous and hard to get around.

[Secret Alias]

And it's importance is clearly confirmed by it being the first point of Celsus

The first point which Celsus brings forward, in his desire to throw discredit upon Christianity, is, that the Christians entered into secret associations with each other contrary to law.

And the significance of that charge is recognized by scholars https://books.google.com/books?id=OcCNA ... ns&f=false

[Giuseppe]

So were the marcionites so secret that Celsus knew even their principal dualistic doctrine and quoted it to show (in 5:61) that he knows very well about the sound divisions of the Church? He minimizes their secrecy, when he compared their presumed hidden mysteries to the grotesque equivalent of the Egyptian misteric cults. At the time of Celsus the games were done: all the Christians were historicists and strong propagandists and loudspeakers. And Celsus is too much excessive in saying that they were persecuted. Why did the Romans persecute dualists at time of Celsus? They could persecute only the Catholics, the same thing that Justin is complaining about.

[Giuseppe]

The monarchianism was a threat for Rome (surely more than marcionite buddhism) until the time when, as you say, it was used as instrumentum regni by Constantin.