Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by DCHindley »

Jax wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 pmOK. Finally finished that thread. Some really good content in there, very thought provoking and educational.

It still seems to me that the King Aretas passage in 2 Corinthians, unless a later addition, is better understood as a reference to Aretas III. However. I do feel that you have some very valid arguments for some of the letters of Paul being no earlier than the late first century BCE, post Actium.

I will point out however that the militaristic language of Paul has a better chance of being associated with someone involved in the wars in Greece, Macedonia and Asia minor during the 1st century BCE rather than in a post Pax Romana period of the same areas in the 1st century CE. Who are these fellow soldiers that he writes to and about?

With the bulk of his letters going to areas that are Roman military veteran colonies of the wars of Julius and Augustus Caesar. I find this very telling.
Use of military language by a Judean has a couple of complications involved. For instance, if one looks for them, one can find examples of quite observant Judeans being military leaders (in 1-2nd century BCE, especially some of high priestly family in Egypt). I cannot remember where I saw it, maybe in E. Schürer, but there is a tale or history that speaks of a Judean archer fighting in some gentile army who was particularly good, and proud of the fact. Generally, Judeans would have learned archery in elite Parthian military units in Mesopotamia, so he may not have been particularly observant. However, I think Neusner relates (somewhere) that there is evidence that Judeans resident in Mesopotamia had at times formed Judean-only units which served as auxiliaries for the Parthians. These may have attempted to preserve diet and purity practices, at least in some sort of "progressive" form. I could see a discharged soldier of one of these units moving over to a gentile military unit, happy as can be.

In the Roman period, Judeans had been granted exemption from conscription into the Roman military in order to avoid violation of their dietary and purity laws. That would not prevent a Judean form volunteering, though. Also, Herodian princes put in charge of tetrarchies by the Romans would have standing armies. These were staffed mostly by non-Judean conscripts from their regions (there were many gentile villages and towns mixed among the Judean ones), and some perhaps recruited from other regions. Their the commanders were usually gentile, but also sometimes Judean, whose level of observance is unknown. I suppose these Herodian client kings could have all-Judean units like modern Israel has "haredi" units mixed among a primarily non-observant Jewish military. Israeli Haredim (I understand this to refer mainly to Orthodox Jews) are exempt from the otherwise mandatory Israeli military service if they object to it, and many of them (e.g., Ultra-Orthodox) do object.

Robert Eisenman has suggested that Paul could have had a connection to a Herodian household, and I generally think this is correct. He seems to be on a familiar basis with a number of folks who appear to have been from such households, one of whom was "foster brother" (a slave who served as a playmate to a prince) to a Herod. It is hard to tell which household, as "Herod" was a popular name or surname for many in the various Herodian families. In a Herodian household, even in an administrative or supply-chain position, he could have picked up military lingo. If he watched the public games in his region, and he does seem to have been familiar with them, he could have picked up military/gladitorial terminology.

Yet because Judeans were generally exempt from military conscription, I tend to doubt that Paul would have been in one of the gentile Roman Legionary or Auxiliary army units. The only other army he could have had some connection to would be those of Parthia or Parthian client kings, some of which were on friendly terms with Roman client kings and Judeans generally (think of Adiabene). However, his circle of travel (whether based on the letters or Acts) seems to be squarely within the Roman sphere of things. Of course

So, explaining Paul's use of military terminology does not *require* that he directly participated as a soldier for some Roman Legionary, Auxiliary or Client king operated army. It might suggest that, sure, but I would not state this as an absolute certainty.

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Some while back I had suggested that Paul's rant about women's hair in 1 Cor 11:6
For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil
was connected to a visit to Jerusalem by Queen Helena of Adiabene to attempt to fulfill a nazirite vow.

I do not recall ever seeing anybody discuss this, but around 52 CE, which is very close to the traditional dating of this book, Queen Helena of Adiabene was in Jerusalem to discharge a Nazirite vow she took upon herself, which involves *shearing off her hair* to offer to a priest in the temple.

From an old FRDB post at http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread549f.html :
That crazy DCHindley wrote:
RSV 1 Cor 11:4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10 That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.
I take this to be occasioned by the visit to Jerusalem by Queen Helena of Adiabene (a convert to Judaism, by the way) in order to fulfill a Nazirite vow, which entails the shaving of her head. Her visit (although not, apparently, the actual shaving, which was delayed due to a technicality) is generally dated to about 50-52 CE. I also think that some of this and the following verses (11-15) belong to an interpolator.

While Paul seems to be criticizing Helena's visit for reasons related to her personal practices (that is, not wearing a veil and perhaps traveling without her husband) and not the act of shaving her head, as there is nothing in Jewish law that prohibits women from fulfilling this vow, I think he was just pissed that her sons had gone the full conversion route rather than the "God-fearing" gentile angle he preferred, and latched onto this as a way to insult her.

Queen Helena (Izates' mother), who was interested in Judaism, was said to have kept a 7 year nazirite vow after her son returned safely from a war. When she came to Jerusalem to have her head shorn, the "school of Hillel" (Mishna Nazir 3.6) convinced her to "again fulfil her vow as from the beginning" in the holy land (presumably because other lands are perceived as "unclean" due to corpse impurity). Supposedly she again contracted uncleanness at the end of that and did it all over again, although this third fulfillment is possibly apocryphal.

We know she was active in relief work in the period of the famine (circa 46 CE or the couple years following since 47/48 CE was a sabbatical year). Also, kinsmen of Izates were active in the war against Rome. Helena is also known for donating (among other things) a golden tablet to the temple inscribed with the passage from the Pentateuch about the suspected adulteress (Mishna Yoma 3.10; Num 5:11-31). Helena had a palace built in Jerusalem, and she and her sons were buried in royal tombs they had built in the city, all of which must have taken many years to build.

Seven years after the famine would put us about 53 CE, and is it more than coincidental that about this period Paul is supposed to have written 1 Corinthians 11:4-16, which is about women having a covering on her head when she prays. Vs 5 & 6 say: "5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil."

R. Eisenman speculates about this all quite a bit in James the Brother of Jesus. He thinks Helena was suspected of infidelity, and hence the donation of the tablet. While Eisenman does not make the connection between Helena and 1 Cor 11, I personally wonder whether the passage is in essence a (veiled <no pun intended> or redacted?) commentary by Paul concerning Helena about to fulfil a vow even though she is suspected of adultery (and thus having had contracted impurity). The time (50-52 CE) and subjects (shearing of hair and shaming her husband) are in parallel.

Coupling these accounts together, it could be reconstructed as follows: Helena and her sons are converted in the late 30's CE. As Helena feared, some of Izates' subjects rebelled upon his conversion, and he must go to war to put it down. She makes her vow and her son returns victorious, about 38 to 40 CE. Later, between about 45 to 47 she comes to Jerusalem to offer her hair and is convinced to start the vow afresh. During this period she arranges famine relief. I think the dates I have seen for her death range between 50 and 52 CE. This whole scenario may be pushed back to start 7 years earlier if the three 7 year periods mentioned in the Mishna are historical, although the events would probably mean a conversion in the late 20's to early 30's, her son defeats the rebellion in 31 CE, and she would have gone to Jerusalem about 38 CE only to start her vow again. This would explain her residence in Jerusalem about 46-48 CE to organize famine relief.
"Of course"™, it has nothing to do with Jesus, so most folks "pooh pooh" suggestions such as this. A Paul angry about a gentile convert to Judaism (Izates & Monobasas) is not how most folks brought up in Christian dominated culture perceive the figure. They want this passage to be an instruction to women to veil themselves as a sign of respect for her familial "head," interpreted as "Jesus". Being publically "shorned" is taken to be a mark of shame, much like what the French did to females who "collaborated" (= had sex with) with the occupying Germans in WW2, and not the consummation of a Nazirite vow.

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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DCHindley wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:26 am
Jax wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 pmOK. Finally finished that thread. Some really good content in there, very thought provoking and educational.

It still seems to me that the King Aretas passage in 2 Corinthians, unless a later addition, is better understood as a reference to Aretas III. However. I do feel that you have some very valid arguments for some of the letters of Paul being no earlier than the late first century BCE, post Actium.

I will point out however that the militaristic language of Paul has a better chance of being associated with someone involved in the wars in Greece, Macedonia and Asia minor during the 1st century BCE rather than in a post Pax Romana period of the same areas in the 1st century CE. Who are these fellow soldiers that he writes to and about?

With the bulk of his letters going to areas that are Roman military veteran colonies of the wars of Julius and Augustus Caesar. I find this very telling.
Use of military language by a Judean has a couple of complications involved. For instance, if one looks for them, one can find examples of quite observant Judeans being military leaders (in 1-2nd century BCE, especially some of high priestly family in Egypt). I cannot remember where I saw it, maybe in E. Schürer, but there is a tale or history that speaks of a Judean archer fighting in some gentile army who was particularly good, and proud of the fact. Generally, Judeans would have learned archery in elite Parthian military units in Mesopotamia, so he may not have been particularly observant. However, I think Neusner relates (somewhere) that there is evidence that Judeans resident in Mesopotamia had at times formed Judean-only units which served as auxiliaries for the Parthians. These may have attempted to preserve diet and purity practices, at least in some sort of "progressive" form. I could see a discharged soldier of one of these units moving over to a gentile military unit, happy as can be.

In the Roman period, Judeans had been granted exemption from conscription into the Roman military in order to avoid violation of their dietary and purity laws. That would not prevent a Judean form volunteering, though. Also, Herodian princes put in charge of tetrarchies by the Romans would have standing armies. These were staffed mostly by non-Judean conscripts from their regions (there were many gentile villages and towns mixed among the Judean ones), and some perhaps recruited from other regions. Their the commanders were usually gentile, but also sometimes Judean, whose level of observance is unknown. I suppose these Herodian client kings could have all-Judean units like modern Israel has "haredi" units mixed among a primarily non-observant Jewish military. Israeli Haredim (I understand this to refer mainly to Orthodox Jews) are exempt from the otherwise mandatory Israeli military service if they object to it, and many of them (e.g., Ultra-Orthodox) do object.

Robert Eisenman has suggested that Paul could have had a connection to a Herodian household, and I generally think this is correct. He seems to be on a familiar basis with a number of folks who appear to have been from such households, one of whom was "foster brother" (a slave who served as a playmate to a prince) to a Herod. It is hard to tell which household, as "Herod" was a popular name or surname for many in the various Herodian families. In a Herodian household, even in an administrative or supply-chain position, he could have picked up military lingo. If he watched the public games in his region, and he does seem to have been familiar with them, he could have picked up military/gladitorial terminology.

Yet because Judeans were generally exempt from military conscription, I tend to doubt that Paul would have been in one of the gentile Roman Legionary or Auxiliary army units. The only other army he could have had some connection to would be those of Parthia or Parthian client kings, some of which were on friendly terms with Roman client kings and Judeans generally (think of Adiabene). However, his circle of travel (whether based on the letters or Acts) seems to be squarely within the Roman sphere of things. Of course

So, explaining Paul's use of military terminology does not *require* that he directly participated as a soldier for some Roman Legionary, Auxiliary or Client king operated army. It might suggest that, sure, but I would not state this as an absolute certainty.

DCH
Paul's whole stance, really, is that the law of traditional Jewish religion is no longer valid. Would not this outlook make it possible for him, a former observant Jew, to be able to justify him being a soldier involved in the Gentile conflicts of the 1st century BCE? Also the decree that Jews not be conscripted came after Pharsalus and Egypt in around 47-46 BCE. If Paul were still in Greece, Macedonia and Asia Minor (his letters give no evidence otherwise) and had been part of the wars there (big if I agree) then there is no good reason for him to discontinue being a soldier. It was a living after all and his letters seem to indicate someone who isn't all that well off financially.
I find quotes like "If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-32.htm very interesting.

That the Jews were soldiers and well regarded as during this period is well attested.
Robert Eisenman has suggested that Paul could have had a connection to a Herodian household, and I generally think this is correct. He seems to be on a familiar basis with a number of folks who appear to have been from such households, one of whom was "foster brother" (a slave who served as a playmate to a prince) to a Herod. It is hard to tell which household, as "Herod" was a popular name or surname for many in the various Herodian families. In a Herodian household, even in an administrative or supply-chain position, he could have picked up military lingo. If he watched the public games in his region, and he does seem to have been familiar with them, he could have picked up military/gladitorial terminology.
It's one thing to use military lingo, but Paul actually says "A fellow soldier" on more than one occasion. This, to me at least, would indicate that Paul included himself in this description.

In his book James the Brother of Jesus Eisenman is forced to extremes to have the Dead See Scrolls date later to support his theories about Paul (dating that is not supported by other scholars) when all he had to do in my opinion was simply bring Paul into the 1st century BCE to make things work out better timewise (screws his James theory though).
So, explaining Paul's use of military terminology does not *require* that he directly participated as a soldier for some Roman Legionary, Auxiliary or Client king operated army. It might suggest that, sure, but I would not state this as an absolute certainty.


Nor do I state it as such. What I have proposed is pure speculation and at present I can see no good way to prove any of it. It does seem to address some of the otherwise inexplicable aspects of some of the contents of his letters though like referring to Illyricum instead of Dalmatia and Pannonia as the area was known in the mid 1st century.
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Gday all,

Working on probabilities of existence,
I have put these early Christians and their source evidence into a timing diagram :

Image

Readers are welcome to the source file to use / edit as required :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByW3G ... FN0QnJOWTg

It's a plain text .XML file (completely safe) used with the drawing program draw.io :
https://www.draw.io/

Comments and improvements welcome :)
This is first version, based on the standard view.


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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Kapyong wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:40 pm Gday all,

Working on probabilities of existence,
I have put these early Christians and their source evidence into a timing diagram....
Do the arrows signify attestation? (For example, that Jerome attests to Polycarp?)
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Gday :)

Yes, the arrows represent a text (brown square box) attesting to a person (blue rounded box.)

A horizontal arrow is a contemporary reference (e.g. Irenaeus) or authorship (e.g. Paul.)

A vertical arrow is later attestation - with length ~= time.

I've left out books such as 1 Peter which may attest to Peter, or Revelation, Clement, Ignatius etc.

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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My first tentative conclusion is :

Hegesippus is most doubtful - he sounds like a sock-puppet of Eusebius.

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Kapyong wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:14 pm Gday :)

Yes, the arrows represent a text (brown square box) attesting to a person (blue rounded box.)

A horizontal arrow is a contemporary reference (e.g. Irenaeus) or authorship (e.g. Paul.)

A vertical arrow is later attestation - with length ~= time.

I've left out books such as 1 Peter which may attest to Peter, or Revelation, Clement, Ignatius etc.
There are a lot more attestations than that left out, which is why I was asking. For example, I do not see where Eusebius attests to Polycarp on your chart, but so important is Eusebius to Polycarp's attestation that two of the Greek chapters of his epistle owe their very existence in our critical texts to Eusebius' History of the Church.

Then again, Eusebius attests to everyone before him on that chart; perhaps that is why you gave links to the source file? It is probably too much for one chart if you draw lines for all of the attestations.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Kapyong wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:16 pm My first tentative conclusion is :

Hegesippus is most doubtful - he sounds like a sock-puppet of Eusebius.
I would read Eusebiana by H. J. Lawlor before going one way or the other on that: https://archive.org/details/eusebianaessays00lawluoft.

I started a thread a while back about Hegesippus' bishop list here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2101.

Even on the surface of things, it seems unlikely that Hegesippus is Eusebius' sock puppet, since Eusebius cannot keep straight during which episcopate(s) Hegesippus was active and writing.
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