Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by DCHindley » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:20 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:57 pm
I have a spreadsheet of possible ordering of early Christian writings that I would like to post here. What is the best way to do that?

Thanks

Jax
Open a web link to

http://jsfiddle.net/agKTg/6/embedded/result/

1) Copy the relevant part of your spreadsheet
2) Paste it into the Excel box on top of the jsfiddle web page (note that it also works with MS Word tables)
3) Now click the Create BBCode button. The code will display in the bottom box.
4) Then copy the results and past it into your board message.

It sometimes screws up on larger tables, but for one that is about 4 columns wide it seems to be fine. There is a limit to the number of characters in your board posts, which translates into a limit to the number of rows the table has.

DCH

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:51 am

DCHindley wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:20 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:57 pm
I have a spreadsheet of possible ordering of early Christian writings that I would like to post here. What is the best way to do that?

Thanks

Jax
Open a web link to

http://jsfiddle.net/agKTg/6/embedded/result/

1) Copy the relevant part of your spreadsheet
2) Paste it into the Excel box on top of the jsfiddle web page (note that it also works with MS Word tables)
3) Now click the Create BBCode button. The code will display in the bottom box.
4) Then copy the results and past it into your board message.

It sometimes screws up on larger tables, but for one that is about 4 columns wide it seems to be fine. There is a limit to the number of characters in your board posts, which translates into a limit to the number of rows the table has.

DCH
Thanks DCHindley. OK here goes.

Order
[/b]
[/b]
[/b]
[/b]
[/b]
[/b]
Depends On
Notes
Paul letters Romans Romans Romans Romans Romans Romans No NT content Possibly 1st century BCE
Philo No NT content 25 BCE – 50 CE
2 Thessalonians Paul letters (1 Thessalonians) Might be 2nd century
“Prison Letters” Paul letters
Letter to the Hebrews Paul letters, Prison Letters DISPUTED
James Paul letters, Hebrews DISPUTED Might post date Matthew
Revelation No NT content DISPUTED
Mark Paul letters Seems to rely on Josephus
Matthew Mark
Luke Mark, Matthew
Marcion Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Luke Present in Rome 140’s.
Has Philemon.
No Hebrews, James, Revelation, Mark,
Matthew, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter,
Didache, John, John letters,
Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
Acts Paul letters, Luke Reaction against Marcion?
“Pastorals” Paul letters, Acts Reaction against Marcion?
1 Peter Paul letters, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, 1 Timothy
Didache Paul letters, Matthew, Luke, 1 Timothy, Revelation DISPUTED
Justin Martyr Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison letters, Revelation, Mark, Present in Rome 150’s.
Matthew, Luke, Acts, 1 Peter
No Philemon,
Hebrews, James, Pastorals,
Didache, John, John letters,
Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
John Philo, Mark, Luke Seems unknown to Justin Martyr but
known to his pupil Tatian
Diatessaron Mark, Matthew, Luke, John Tatian 160’s
John letters No NT content DISPUTED 2 and 3 John
Shepard of Hermas Paul letters, Mark, Matthew, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, 1 John DISPUTED
Jude No NT content DISPUTED May rely on 2 Peter
Polycarp Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Acts, No Philemon, Hebrews, James,
Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters Revelation, Didache,
Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter,
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
2 Peter Prison letters, James, Pastorals, 1 Peter, Jude DISPUTED May precede Jude
1 Clement Paul letters, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, Matthew, John, No Philemon, Revelation, Mark, Luke,
Pastorals, 2 Peter Acts, Didache, John letters, 1 Peter,
Shepard of Hermas, Jude
Letter of Barnabas, Letter to Diognetus
Letter of Barnabas Prison letters, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Pastorals, 1 Peter, 2 Peter DISPUTED
Letter to Diognetus Paul letters, Prison Letters, Pastorals
Irenaeus Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark No Philemon, James, Didache,
Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
First to give names to the Gospels
Clement of Alexandria Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark No Philemon, James, Didache,
Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
Origen Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark No Philemon, James, Didache,
Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter, Jude
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
Tertullian Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark No Philemon, James, Didache,
Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
Letter to Diognetus
Codex Sinaiticus Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, Revelation, No Didache, 1 Clement,
Mark, Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Letter to Diognetus
Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter, letter of Barnabas

Not great but good enough for now. Is there any way for me to share the original file so that others can play around with it?

Some of the data is based on this.

Image

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:34 am

Image

I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century. The same with 3 John.

How sure are we that Marcion actually had Philemon?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:06 am

Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:34 am
I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century. The same with 3 John.

How sure are we that Marcion actually had Philemon?
All we have is patristic witness, same as we have for all of the other epistles.

Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.21.1: [DE EPISTULA AD PHILEMONEM] 1 To this epistle alone did its brevity avail to protect it against the falsifying hands of Marcion. I wonder, however, when he received (into his Apostolicon) this letter which was written but to one man, that he rejected the two epistles to Timothy and the one to Titus, which all treat of ecclesiastical discipline. His aim, was, I suppose, to carry out his interpolating process even to the number of (St. Paul's) epistles.

Epiphanius, Panarion 42.9.1-4; 11.7, 9-10; 12.3: 9.1 But I shall come to his writings, or rather, to his tamperings. This man has only Luke as a Gospel, mutilated at the beginning because of the Saviour's conception and his incarnation. 2 But this person who harmed himself rather than the Gospel did not cut just the beginning off. He also cut off many words of the truth both at the end and in the middle, and he has added other things besides, beyond what had been written. And he uses only this (Gospel) canon, the Gospel according to Luke. 3 He also possesses ten Epistles of the holy apostle, the only ones he uses, but not all that is written in them. He deletes some parts of them, and has altered certain sections. He uses these two volumes (of the Bible) but has composed other treatises himself for the persons he has deceived. 4 Here are what he calls Epistles: 1. Galatians. 2. Corinthians. 3. Second Corinthians. 4. Romans. 5. Thessalonians. 6. Second Thessalonians. 7. Ephesians. 8. Colossians. 9. Philemon. 10. Philippians. He also has parts of the so-called Epistle to the Laodiceans. .... 11.7 .... The Epistle to Philemon, number nine in Marcion's canon, but number thirteen, or even fourteen, in ours. .... 9 This is Marcion's corrupt compilation, containing a version and form of the Gospel according to Luke, and an incomplete one of the apostle Paul—not of all his epistles 10 but simply of Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, Laodiceans, Galatians, First and Second Corinthians, First and Second Thessalonians, Philemon and Philippians. .... 12.3 .... The Epistle to Philemon, number nine, (a) for this is its position in Marcion; but in the Apostle it stands last. In some copies, however, it is placed thirteenth before Hebrews, which is fourteenth, but other copies have the Epistle to the Hebrews tenth, before the two Epistles to Timothy, the Epistle to Titus, and the Epistle to Philemon. (b) However all sound, accurate copies have Romans first, Marcion, and do not place Galatians first as you do. In any case I cite nothing from this Epistle, Philemon, since Marcion has it in a completely distorted form. ....

I have some thoughts elsewhere on 3 John, Irenaeus, and the Muratorian canon: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1847.

Bear in mind that both Philemon and 3 John are very brief and very concerned with very specific situations. We also know that many of the church fathers had a preference for "catholic" (general, universal) doctrine of the sort not found in those two epistles. This falls short, of course, of an argument for their ancientness, but is a comment on how powerful the argument from silence may or may not be in this case.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:18 am

Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:34 am
I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century.
The Muratorian canon has it: "Nevertheless, he wrote one to Philemon and one to Titus, and two to Timothy for his affection and love." Also, Origen apparently wrote a commentary on Philemon; this has been lost except for a quotation by Rufinus.
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:57 am

I don't find the 'witness' for Philemon among the Marcionites very convincing. I would argue against it. You have to figure that (a) the text was slight and (b) there is no compelling citation of Philemon's use among the Marcionites. Remember Epiphanius's misreading/misunderstanding of what Laodiceans was for the Marcionites. These are third and fourth hand - even fifth and sixth hand - reports. If Marcionite use isn't absolutely explicit - doubt.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:00 am

Muratorian has an epistle to the Alexandrians among the Marcionites.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 pm

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 pm

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.
It worked for me.

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 pm

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.
It worked for me.
Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?

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