Who existed ? When ? Where ?

[DCHindley]

I have a spreadsheet of possible ordering of early Christian writings that I would like to post here. What is the best way to do that?

Thanks

Jax

Open a web link to

http://jsfiddle.net/agKTg/6/embedded/result/

1) Copy the relevant part of your spreadsheet
2) Paste it into the Excel box on top of the jsfiddle web page (note that it also works with MS Word tables)
3) Now click the Create BBCode button. The code will display in the bottom box.
4) Then copy the results and past it into your board message.

It sometimes screws up on larger tables, but for one that is about 4 columns wide it seems to be fine. There is a limit to the number of characters in your board posts, which translates into a limit to the number of rows the table has.

DCH

[Jax]

I have a spreadsheet of possible ordering of early Christian writings that I would like to post here. What is the best way to do that?

Thanks

Jax

Open a web link to

http://jsfiddle.net/agKTg/6/embedded/result/

1) Copy the relevant part of your spreadsheet
2) Paste it into the Excel box on top of the jsfiddle web page (note that it also works with MS Word tables)
3) Now click the Create BBCode button. The code will display in the bottom box.
4) Then copy the results and past it into your board message.

It sometimes screws up on larger tables, but for one that is about 4 columns wide it seems to be fine. There is a limit to the number of characters in your board posts, which translates into a limit to the number of rows the table has.

DCH

Thanks DCHindley. OK here goes.

Order	[/b]	[/b]	[/b]	[/b]	[/b]	[/b]	Depends On	Notes
Paul letters	Romans	Romans	Romans	Romans	Romans	Romans	No NT content	Possibly 1st century BCE
Philo							No NT content	25 BCE – 50 CE
2 Thessalonians							Paul letters (1 Thessalonians)	Might be 2nd century
“Prison Letters”							Paul letters
Letter to the Hebrews							Paul letters, Prison Letters	DISPUTED
James							Paul letters, Hebrews	DISPUTED Might post date Matthew
Revelation							No NT content	DISPUTED
Mark							Paul letters	Seems to rely on Josephus
Matthew							Mark
Luke							Mark, Matthew
Marcion							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Luke	Present in Rome 140’s.
								Has Philemon.
								No Hebrews, James, Revelation, Mark,
								Matthew, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter,
								Didache, John, John letters,
								Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
Acts							Paul letters, Luke	Reaction against Marcion?
“Pastorals”							Paul letters, Acts	Reaction against Marcion?
1 Peter							Paul letters, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, 1 Timothy
Didache							Paul letters, Matthew, Luke, 1 Timothy, Revelation	DISPUTED
Justin Martyr							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison letters, Revelation, Mark,	Present in Rome 150’s.
							Matthew, Luke, Acts, 1 Peter
								No Philemon,
								Hebrews, James, Pastorals,
								Didache, John, John letters,
								Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
John							Philo, Mark, Luke	Seems unknown to Justin Martyr but
								known to his pupil Tatian
Diatessaron							Mark, Matthew, Luke, John	Tatian 160’s
John letters							No NT content	DISPUTED 2 and 3 John
Shepard of Hermas							Paul letters, Mark, Matthew, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, 1 John	DISPUTED
Jude							No NT content	DISPUTED May rely on 2 Peter
Polycarp							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Acts,	No Philemon, Hebrews, James,
							Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters	Revelation, Didache,
								Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter,
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
2 Peter							Prison letters, James, Pastorals, 1 Peter, Jude	DISPUTED May precede Jude
1 Clement							Paul letters, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, Matthew, John,	No Philemon, Revelation, Mark, Luke,
							Pastorals, 2 Peter	Acts, Didache, John letters, 1 Peter,
								Shepard of Hermas, Jude
								Letter of Barnabas, Letter to Diognetus
Letter of Barnabas							Prison letters, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Pastorals, 1 Peter, 2 Peter	DISPUTED
Letter to Diognetus							Paul letters, Prison Letters, Pastorals
Irenaeus							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark	No Philemon, James, Didache,
							Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude	Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
								First to give names to the Gospels
Clement of Alexandria							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark	No Philemon, James, Didache,
							Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude	Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
Origen							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark	No Philemon, James, Didache,
							Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters	Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter, Jude
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
Tertullian							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, Revelation, Mark	No Philemon, James, Didache,
							Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters, Jude	Shepard of Hermas, 2 Peter
								1 Clement, Letter of Barnabas,
								Letter to Diognetus
Codex Sinaiticus							Paul letters, 2 Thess, Prison Letters, Hebrews, James, Revelation,	No Didache, 1 Clement,
							Mark, Matthew, Luke, Acts, Pastorals, 1 Peter, John, John letters,	Letter to Diognetus
							Shepard of Hermas, Jude, 2 Peter, letter of Barnabas

Not great but good enough for now. Is there any way for me to share the original file so that others can play around with it?

Some of the data is based on this.

[Jax]

I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century. The same with 3 John.

How sure are we that Marcion actually had Philemon?

[Ben C. Smith]

I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century. The same with 3 John.

How sure are we that Marcion actually had Philemon?

All we have is patristic witness, same as we have for all of the other epistles.

Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.21.1: [DE EPISTULA AD PHILEMONEM] 1 To this epistle alone did its brevity avail to protect it against the falsifying hands of Marcion. I wonder, however, when he received (into his Apostolicon) this letter which was written but to one man, that he rejected the two epistles to Timothy and the one to Titus, which all treat of ecclesiastical discipline. His aim, was, I suppose, to carry out his interpolating process even to the number of (St. Paul's) epistles.

Epiphanius, Panarion 42.9.1-4; 11.7, 9-10; 12.3: 9.1 But I shall come to his writings, or rather, to his tamperings. This man has only Luke as a Gospel, mutilated at the beginning because of the Saviour's conception and his incarnation. 2 But this person who harmed himself rather than the Gospel did not cut just the beginning off. He also cut off many words of the truth both at the end and in the middle, and he has added other things besides, beyond what had been written. And he uses only this (Gospel) canon, the Gospel according to Luke. 3 He also possesses ten Epistles of the holy apostle, the only ones he uses, but not all that is written in them. He deletes some parts of them, and has altered certain sections. He uses these two volumes (of the Bible) but has composed other treatises himself for the persons he has deceived. 4 Here are what he calls Epistles: 1. Galatians. 2. Corinthians. 3. Second Corinthians. 4. Romans. 5. Thessalonians. 6. Second Thessalonians. 7. Ephesians. 8. Colossians. 9. Philemon. 10. Philippians. He also has parts of the so-called Epistle to the Laodiceans. .... 11.7 .... The Epistle to Philemon, number nine in Marcion's canon, but number thirteen, or even fourteen, in ours. .... 9 This is Marcion's corrupt compilation, containing a version and form of the Gospel according to Luke, and an incomplete one of the apostle Paul—not of all his epistles 10 but simply of Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, Laodiceans, Galatians, First and Second Corinthians, First and Second Thessalonians, Philemon and Philippians. .... 12.3 .... The Epistle to Philemon, number nine, (a) for this is its position in Marcion; but in the Apostle it stands last. In some copies, however, it is placed thirteenth before Hebrews, which is fourteenth, but other copies have the Epistle to the Hebrews tenth, before the two Epistles to Timothy, the Epistle to Titus, and the Epistle to Philemon. (b) However all sound, accurate copies have Romans first, Marcion, and do not place Galatians first as you do. In any case I cite nothing from this Epistle, Philemon, since Marcion has it in a completely distorted form. ....

I have some thoughts elsewhere on 3 John, Irenaeus, and the Muratorian canon: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1847.

Bear in mind that both Philemon and 3 John are very brief and very concerned with very specific situations. We also know that many of the church fathers had a preference for "catholic" (general, universal) doctrine of the sort not found in those two epistles. This falls short, of course, of an argument for their ancientness, but is a comment on how powerful the argument from silence may or may not be in this case.

[Ben C. Smith]

I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century.

The Muratorian canon has it: "Nevertheless, he wrote one to Philemon and one to Titus, and two to Timothy for his affection and love." Also, Origen apparently wrote a commentary on Philemon; this has been lost except for a quotation by Rufinus.

[Secret Alias]

I don't find the 'witness' for Philemon among the Marcionites very convincing. I would argue against it. You have to figure that (a) the text was slight and (b) there is no compelling citation of Philemon's use among the Marcionites. Remember Epiphanius's misreading/misunderstanding of what Laodiceans was for the Marcionites. These are third and fourth hand - even fifth and sixth hand - reports. If Marcionite use isn't absolutely explicit - doubt.

[Secret Alias]

Muratorian has an epistle to the Alexandrians among the Marcionites.

[Jax]

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.

[MrMacSon]

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.

It worked for me.

[Jax]

Think I figured out how to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Someone let me know if it worked.

It worked for me.

Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?