Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:22 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:18 am
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:34 am
I find it interesting to note that, besides Marcion in the 140's, Philemon isn't used by anyone else until the 4th century.
The Muratorian canon has it: "Nevertheless, he wrote one to Philemon and one to Titus, and two to Timothy for his affection and love." Also, Origen apparently wrote a commentary on Philemon; this has been lost except for a quotation by Rufinus.
I for one am willing to assume that Marcion had a letter to Philemon as part of his Paul letters.

Thanks for the John letters link above BTW. Very interesting.

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Kapyong
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Kapyong » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:05 pm

Gday Jax,
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm
Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?
No.
To edit the master copy, one has to login with Google and request edit rights from you.

But -
anyone can save their own copy to edit with File / Save As on the page.

Thanks Jax.

Kapyong

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MrMacSon
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:18 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 pm

... to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing -Someone let me know if it worked.
It worked for me.
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm
Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?
Just view it (but it seems I can make a copy or download it via the drop-down menu under File).

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:12 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:18 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 pm

... to share the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing -Someone let me know if it worked.
It worked for me.
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm
Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?
Just view it (but it seems I can make a copy or download it via the drop-down menu under File).
OK cool!

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:14 pm

Kapyong wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:05 pm
Gday Jax,
Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm
Excellent! Are you able to modify the content online or just view it?
No.
To edit the master copy, one has to login with Google and request edit rights from you.

But -
anyone can save their own copy to edit with File / Save As on the page.

Thanks Jax.

Kapyong
Cheers Buddy. :)

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:23 pm

^ I for one would love to see what other people can do with the information in the spreadsheet.

And Table as well. :)

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:27 pm

It seems to me that Philemon might have been the prototype for the Pastorals.

Are 2 and 3 John a response to this tradition?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:47 pm

Jax wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:27 pm
It seems to me that Philemon might have been the prototype for the Pastorals.

Are 2 and 3 John a response to this tradition?
Not sure about the specific question you ask here, but I have laid out a possible reconstruction of John versus Paul here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3221. I have already changed my mind about a few of the details in that scenario, but the overall flow of things may carry some merit.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Some comments, the way I see it, after my documented research:

Paul's letters: 1 Thessalonians (50), 1 Corinthians (53-55), 2 Corinthians (55-56), Philippians (53?-56/57?), Philemon (56), Galatians (56), Romans (57).
All letters, except Philemon, have interpolations. The Corinthians And Philippians letters are, for each, a combination of three different letters. Philemon & one of the Philippians letter are genuine prison letters.
At least, one other Corinthians letter got "lost".
Depends on OT, Philo of Alexandria and 'Hebrews" & its author (most likely Apollos of Alexandria).

Hebrews:
54. Depends on Philo and reacting to one of the Corinthians letters (the first one).

Colossians:
57?-65? Depends on Philemon.

James:
60?-65? (prior to 70). Reaction against Paul's preaching? probably.

Mark:
70-71. Likely depends on Paul' letters but not his whole preaching. Depends also on Peter's testimony.

1 Clement:
~81. Depends on some of Paul's letters, Mark & Hebrews.

Matthew:
81-93. Depends on Mark and Q and James and 1 Clement.

1 John:
75?-85? Depends on Hebrews.

1 Peter:
~80? Depends on Paul's letters.

Luke:
81-93. Depends on Mark & Q and Josephus' Wars and 1 Clement.

Acts:
A few years after Luke. Depends on Luke, Josephus' Wars and Paul's companions testimonies.

The Didache:
~95? (as an Ebionistic document still without the later Christian additions). Depends on Matthew.

John:
Written in stages from ~85 up to ~105. Depends on Mark, Luke, possibly Acts & Hebrews & Paul's letters.

Barnabas (epistle):
97. Depends on Matthew, possibly Luke & Acts.

Revelation:
~90/95? Depends on Matthew.

2 Thessalonians:
End of 1st century. Depends on 1 Thessalonians.

Ephesians:
End of 1st century. Depends on Colossians and probably some of Paul's letters.


That's it for 1st century known Christian literature.

Notes:
a) By "depends on", I meant the author knew and used prior literature or testimonies from a little bit to a lot.
b) The final Q considerably depends on Mark, but also features a few prior eyewitnesses' testimonies (about Jesus' sayings).

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:19 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:11 pm
1 Clement:
~81. Depends on some of Paul's letters, Mark & Hebrews.
Out of curiosity, what about the sayings in 1 Clement 13? Most of them are not found in Mark, Hebrews, or the Pauline letters.
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