Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:58 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:29 pm
Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:14 pm
According to Josephus' life, 1. (5) and 3. (13) Josephus was in Rome for a short time in 64 CE. However he may have left Rome before the big fire (which started on July 18th or 19th).
Yes, that is what I mean. It is hard to pin when he was there down to the exact month. Might he not have been on a ship back to Judea by the time the fire broke out?
Even so, he was back in Rome when he wrote life. How credible is it that he had never heard about the "Great Fire" of Rome or the treatment of Jews at the hands of Nero for it?

Tacitus is supposedly talking about a "great multitude" is he not?

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:23 am

^ it also makes me wonder why the Jews thought that Florus was really just lining his own pocket with the money that he took from the Temple instead of taking it for the Emperor as he claimed.
If Suetonius is correct that "and from the contributions which he not only received, but even demanded, he nearly bankrupted the provinces and exhausted the resources of individuals." why don't we hear of this from Josephus?

No. The silence of Josephus on this can't be shrugged off, it's to glaring.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:39 am

Yes the whole Josephiana is suspicious. A Greek recreation of a lost Aramaic hypomnema. Likely fabricated in the second century.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Bernard Muller
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:16 am

to Jax,
Even so, he was back in Rome when he wrote life. How credible is it that he had never heard about the "Great Fire" of Rome or the treatment of Jews at the hands of Nero for it?

Tacitus is supposedly talking about a "great multitude" is he not?
Josephus' works, including Life, are not about a history of the city of Rome.
We cannot expect an author to mention everything he knows, more so if the "missing" events are outside the topics of his writings.

By "treatment of Jews" you must mean "treatment of Christians". If so, Josephus was not interested by Christians, as also Cassius Dio (even if Christians could not be ignored at the end of 2nd century and beginning of the 3rd).

The great multitudes could have been a few thousands, out of more than one million inhabitants of Rome.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:20 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:16 am
to Jax,
Even so, he was back in Rome when he wrote life. How credible is it that he had never heard about the "Great Fire" of Rome or the treatment of Jews at the hands of Nero for it?

Tacitus is supposedly talking about a "great multitude" is he not?
Josephus' works, including Life, are not about a history of the city of Rome.
We cannot expect an author to mention everything he knows, more so if the "missing" events are outside the topics of his writings.

By "treatment of Jews" you must mean "treatment of Christians". If so, Josephus was not interested by Christians, as also Cassius Dio (even if Christians could not be ignored at the end of 2nd century and beginning of the 3rd).

The great multitudes could have been a few thousands, out of more than one million inhabitants of Rome.

Cordially, Bernard
And yet he did talk about Rome and Nero and Nero's wife etc.

Only a few thousand? Oh well then. No wonder he didn't bother. :wtf:

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:29 pm

^ Bernard, Please excuse my sarcastic response. It was uncalled for and I apologize.

sincerely.

Jax

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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:08 pm

to Jax,
And yet he did talk about Rome and Nero and Nero's wife etc.
But Nero' wife was used in the freeing of these Jewish Priests, the purpose of Josephus' trip to Rome.
"I became acquainted with Aliturius, an actor of plays, and much beloved by Nero, but a Jew by birth; and through his interest became known to Poppea, Caesar's wife, and took care, as soon as possible, to entreat her to procure that the priests might be set at liberty. And when, besides this favor, I had obtained many presents from Poppea, I returned home again. (Josephus' Life 3)"
And of course Josephus mentioned Rome, because that's where he went and where Nero was.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:59 am

For consideration.
Tenorikuma wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:54 pm
J.V.M. Sturdy, in Redrawing the Boundaries: The Date of Early Christian Literature (London: Equinox 2008), reexamines the dating of every NT work and all early Christian writings that cite them. He arrives at this dating (rounded to nearest decade):

40 1 Thessalonians
50 Galatians, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon
60
70 Q
80 Mark, Colossians
90
100 Ephesians
110 Luke, 1 Peter, Hebrews
120 2 Thessalonians
130 Matthew, Acts, James, Jude, 1 Clement
140 John, Pastorals, Barnabas, Papias (up to 160)
150 Johannines, 2 Peter, Revelation, Didache, Hermas
160 John 21
170
180 Ignatian letters
190
200 Polycarp (possibly as late as 250)

His case for each work is well-documented and based on prior scholarship.
From this earlier thread http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 1&start=10

As I argue for a Paul in the 1st century BCE and as the Q document has never actually been shown to exist, this data would seem to indicate a very late 1st century to early 2nd century origin for the bulk of the NT. This would make sense as it would help explain the complete lack of credible attestation for 1st century Christianity.
The question if this is true, for me anyway, is what caused the sudden rekindling of interest in Christianity so long after Paul? Was it a small, marginal cult that took a century to finally achieve critical mass or was there some sort of external stimulus to trigger a revival of interest? If 'Mark' is responding to the Jewish Roman war, perhaps through Josephus, then this would make sense.
If I am right that Paul is writing in the 1st century BCE to fellow soldiers, Jewish and Gentile, in and around Roman veteran settlement colonies (Corinth, Phillipi, Thessalonica) then it would be the Grandchildren if not Great Grandchildren of these soldiers that are reviving interest in this.

But why?

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