Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

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MrMacSon
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:22 pm I meant to do some systematic research (but did not), but it seems that everywhere Justin wrote "memoirs of his apostles" in Trypho (13 times), it is for material which appear at least in gMatthew.

But for Lk 22:44 (most likely an interpolation), Justin added "and those who followed them".

Therefore, it looks that Justin knew about the specifics of gLuke introduction:
Trypho CIII "For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [as for the author of gLuke (according to Lk 1:1-2)] [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, [only in Lk 22:44]"

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or, it's a coincidence ... or Trypho CIII preceded Luke ... or both
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by John2 »

Regarding hakeem's comments above about Justin not naming the memoirs/gospels, I think Hurtado addresses this well in his comments section in Neil's link:
Justin quotes specifically from the writings he calls “memoirs of the apostles” and what he quotes is readily recognizable as passages from our known NT Gospels. As to him not naming them, why should he? How would that matter to the non-Christians he purports to address in the Dialogue and Apology? He ascribes them to apostles and to followers of the apostles (NB: more than one of each category, which would fit with our known two ascribed to apostles and our known two ascribed to “successors”).

The Gospels themselves are actually anonymous–the authors didn’t add their names. As I’ve noted in an essay from over a decade ago, it appears that across the 2nd century names were added to works and works were more often given authors’ names. Justin doesn’t say these memoirs were “inspired” (that’s your term). He says they’re the “memoirs of the apostles”–a term that connotes sacred authority (like the “memoirs” of the pagan deities).

As to him not quoting “verbatim” (actually, he often does), quotation practice in the Roman era preferred a looser quotation, unless the text was being argued over.

All in all, thus, the judgment that Justin (1) knew the NT Gospels, and (2) treated them as special texts that were read in church, seems pretty sound.
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by neilgodfrey »

What I am looking for is "recent chatter" by scholars,whether that means online in discussion forums, blogs, or in publications of various kinds. What surprised me in both LH's and BW's comments was the apparent indication that there is currently some sort of revisiting of the question in some corners of academia. It is that apparently recent discussion, and where to find it and to learn who is involved, that I am interested in tracking down.
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:22 pm I meant to do some systematic research (but did not), but it seems that everywhere Justin wrote "memoirs of his apostles" in Trypho (13 times), it is for material which appear at least in gMatthew.
But for Lk 22:44 (most likely an interpolation), Justin added "and those who followed them".
Well, the Boanerges detail is not in Matthew. But, then again, "those who followed them" would be plural, and would cover both Luke and Mark (if need be). On the other hand, the Boanerges detail is said to come from "his" (that is, most likely Peter's, less likely Jesus') memoirs. and Peter is an apostle.
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:56 pm
What I am looking for is "recent chatter" by scholars,whether that means online in discussion forums, blogs, or in publications of various kinds. What surprised me in both LH's and BW's comments was the apparent indication that there is currently some sort of revisiting of the question in some corners of academia. It is that apparently recent discussion, and where to find it and to learn who is involved, that I am interested in tracking down.
I briefly engaged with James McGrath somewhere (reddit(?)) about the proposals by Vinzent and Klinghardt that some or all of the synoptic-gospels were via- or post- Marcion. All he would say is BeDuhn's book had been discussed at a seminar (SBL(?)). He wouldn't be drawn on what was discussed there, or on Vinzent or Klinghardt. The silence is often deafening.
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by neilgodfrey »

Justin seems to prefer details that we find in noncanonical gospels over anything we read in the canonical counterparts. Doesn't it seem odd that noncanonical narrative details should have apparent pre-eminence over what became the canonical works, or even details that we would otherwise presume to be found in the "Memoirs of the Apostles" themselves?

Further, when Justin does address some elements of the nativity that we find in the Gospel of Matthew, I don't think he attributes anything to what he reads in the Memoirs of the Apostles, but appears to be winging it from the OT itself, often adding details that are alien to anything we find in Matthew.

To add to strangeness of it all, he occasionally sounds like he's echoing something from the Gospel of John but nowhere else indicates any awareness of that Gospel.

The writings of Justin raise too many questions for me to be able to confidently think that he certainly knew of our canonical gospels -- certainly not in the form that we know them, and certainly not with any special "scriptural"-like status that they held for Irenaeus.
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
On the other hand, the Boanerges detail is said to come from "his" (that is, most likely Peter's, less likely Jesus') memoirs. and Peter is an apostle.
I rather think "his" means Jesus: Trypho CVI "And when it is said that He changed the name of one of the apostles to Peter; and when it is written in the memoirs of Him that this so happened, as well as that He changed the names of other two brothers, the sons of Zebedee, to Boanerges, which means sons of thunder;" http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
The Greek needs to be checked for possible clarification.

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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by DCHindley »

It is, as I had posted many moons ago, quite a bit more nuanced and difficult to interpret than it, at first, seems. How can you know what Justin means by "memoirs" unless you can look at it in context? Here is the whole context she-bang, including all the examples I could find, of all words even remotely defined as "memoirs".

To evaluate whether the things Justin cites are quotes from a canonical gospel, conflations of more than one gospel, or from a harmony, one would need to create a table, similar to what I did with Mark in Irenaeus (AH) elsewhere recently, but add additional columns for Matthew and Luke (and whatever else might fit). Then perhaps copy the ET and/or Greek to go along with the citation, but that would be a *lot* of work!! Besides, someone has probably already done just that, if you can find it.

ὑπομνηματισμός (memorandums), ἀπομνημονεύω (to remember), ἀπομνημόνευμα (memoirs) & ὑποτύπωσις (outlines) in Bible, Josephus, Early Chr authors & Eusebius

Definitions:

1) ὑπομνημα^τ-ισμός , ὁ, [ὑπό = "under"]
A. memorandum, of a shopping list, PFreib.ap.Wilcken ad UPZ62.12 (Ptolemaic); minute, Plb.23.2.4, 25.4.5; royal decree, OGI262.3 (Baetocaece); στρατηγοῦ (in Roman Egypt) his official diary, in pl., Sammelb.7404 ii 31 (ii A. D.), Wilcken Chr.41i1, iv 1, VI (iii A. D.); of other officials, e. g. “ἐπιστρατήγου” PSI10.1100.1 (ii A. D.); ἀναγραφὴ -ισμῶν list (register) of records, PLips.123.2 (ii A. D.); a decree of the Areopagus, because these were kept as written records, Cic.Fam.13.1.5, Att.5.11.6, IG 22.3952,4012, 42(1).83.18 (Epid., i A. D.), SIG1008.2 (Eleusis, iii A. D.).
b. note-taking, Ath.Med. ap. Orib.inc.21.6.
2. = ὑπόμνημα 11.3, memoirs, annals, Plb.2.40.4; treatise, Phld.Rh.1.120 S., al., Stob.2.7.5, etc.
3. commentary on an author, Eust.746.29.

2) ἀπομνημον-εύω , [ἀπό = "from"]
A. relate from memory, Pl.Phdr.228a, etc.:—Pass., to be recorded, “ἀπομνημονεύεται ὁπόστος ἐγένετο” X.Ages.1.2.
2. remember, call to mind, Pl.Plt.268e, Phd.103b, Ly.211a, D.19.13, Aeschin.3.16, etc.; keep in mind, “διδαχήν” Pl.Plt.273b,al.
3. ἐπὶ τούτου τὠυτὸ οὔνομα ἀπεμνημόνευσε τῷ παιδὶ θέσθαι gave his son the same name in memory of a thing, Hdt.5.65.
4. ἀ. τινί τι bear something in mind against another, X.Mem.1.2.31, Aeschin.1.129, 3.208; “οὐδὲ μνησίκακος: οὐ γὰρ μεγαλοψύχου τὸ ἀ.” Arist.EN1125a4.
5. τινί τι bear in mind favourably, “πατρικὰς εὐεργεσίας” D.Ep. 3.19; “χάριν” Luc.Sacr.2, JTr.40.

3) ἀπομνημόν-ευμα, ατος, τό,
A. memorial, record, “τινός” D.S.1.14, Plu. Pomp.2; ἀ. σύντομον memorandum, PSI1.85 (iii A.D.): in pl., memoirs, as those of Socrates by X., D.H.Rh.9.12, Plu.Cat.Ma. 9.

4) ὑποτύπ-ωσις [υ^], εως, ἡ,
A. sketch, outline, Str.2.5.18, Ph.2.12, Anon. Lond.7.17, Hermog.Prog.6, Poll.7.128; ὑ. ἕνεκα συγγράμματος draft for a book, Gal.15.760; as Empiric term, Id.8.709, al.; opp. ἐξεργασία, Plot.6.3.7; ὑπογραφάς τε καὶ ὑποτυπώσεις, opp. ὅρους, Stoic.2.76: αἱ Ὑποτυπώσεις was the name given by Sextus Empiricus to his Outlines of the Pyrrhonic Philosophy, cf. D.L.9.78, Gal.Libr. Propr.Praef.: Proclus calls one of his works ἡ ὑ. τῶν ἀστρονομικῶν ὑποθέσεων, Hyp.7.50.
2. model, pattern, 1 Ep.Ti.1.16, 2 Ep.Ti.1.13; “εἰς ὑποτύπωσιν ἀρετῶν” Phld.Mus.p.77 K.
3. a Rhet. figure, by which a matter was vividly sketched in words, Quint.Inst.9.2.40.

Forms of noun ὑπομνηματισμός:1

• Ezra 4:15) examination may be made in thy [Royal] fathers' book of record [ὑπομνηματισμοῦ, noun genitive masculine singular common, from ὑπομνηματισμός] ...

• 1Esdras 2:22) And thou shalt find in the [Royal] chronicles [ὑπομνηματισμοῖς, noun dative masculine plural common, from ὑπομνηματισμός] what is written concerning these things

• 2 Maccabees 2:13) The same things also were reported in the writings and commentaries [ὑπομνηματισμοῖς, noun pl masc dat, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Neemias ...
• 2 Maccabees 4:23) to put him in mind [ὑπομνηματισμοὺς, noun accusative masculine plural common, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of certain necessary matters

• Josephus, Ant 7.110) Jehoshaphat, the son of Ahilud, made recorder [ὑπομνημάτων from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 7.293) Jehoshaphat and Achilud set over the records [ὑπομνημάτων, from ὑπομνηματισμός, noun sg masc nom]
• Josephus, Ant 10.5) Joah the recorder [ὑπομνημάτων, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 10.55) Joah the recorder [ὑπομνημάτων, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 11.94) the records [ὑπομνήματα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of the kings
• Josephus, Ant 11.98) the royal records [ὑπομνήμασιν, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 11.104) [ὑπομνήμασιν, , from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 11.208) the records [ὑπομνήματα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Cyrus
• Josephus, Ant 11.248) the chronicles [ὑπομνήματα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of the former kings
• Josephus, Ant 12.258) a written brief [ὑπόμνημα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] summarizing a problem
• Josephus, Ant 12.262) a written brief [ὑπόμνημα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] summarizing a problem
• Josephus, Ant 15.174) the commentaries [ὑπομνήμασιν, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of King Herod
• Josephus, Ant 16.43) memorials [ὑπομνήμασιν, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 17.213) a memorial [ὑπόμνημα, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Josephus, Ant 19.294) a memorial/testimony [ὑπόμνημα, from ὑπομνηματισμός]

• Josephus, Lif 1.342) the Commentaries [from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Vespasian
• Josephus, Lif 1.358) the commentaries [from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Caesar

• Josephus, Against Apion 1.56) although they [men like Josephus' foe Apion] pretend to have made use of both the emperors' own memoirs [ὑπομνήμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ὑπομνηματισμός] ...

• Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks/Protrepticus 2.44: As a mystic memorial [ὑπόμνημα, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of this incident, phalloi are raised aloft in honour of Dionysus through the various cities.

• Eusebius Church History 1.2. ... [ὑπομνήμασιν, ]
• Eusebius Church History 1.9.3) those who have recently given currency to acts [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] against our Saviour
• Eusebius Church History 1.11.9) who have forged the acts [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] against them [John the Baptist and our Savior]
• Eusebius Church History 2.? ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ]
• Eusebius Church History 2.15. ... [ὑπόμνημα, ]
• Eusebius Church History 2.23.3) But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs [ὑπομνήματι, noun sg neut dat, from ὑπομνηματισμός].
• Eusebius Church History 2.23.8) Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs [ὑπομνήμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ὑπομνηματισμός] ...
• Eusebius Church History 2.25. ... [ὑπομνήμασιν, ]
• Eusebius Church History 3.24. ... [ὑπομνήματα, ]
• Eusebius Church History 3.37. ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ]
• Eusebius Church History 4.15. ... [ὑπομνήματα, ]
• Eusebius Church History 4.18. ... [ὑπομνήματα, ]
• Eusebius Church History 4.15.48) ... records [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] extant of others that suffered martyrdom
• Eusebius Church History 4.18.1) This writer [Justin Martyr] has left us a great many monuments [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός]
• Eusebius Church History 4.22.1) Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs [ὑπομνήμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ὑπομνηματισμός] which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views.
• Eusebius Church History 5.11.2-3) 2 In his Hypotyposes [Ὑποτυπώσεσιν, noun sg fem acc, from ὑποτύπωσις] he [Clement of Alexandria] speaks of ... 3 [Clement says] my notes [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] are stored up for old age ...
• Eusebius Church History 5.13. ... [ὑπόμνημα, ]
• Eusebius Church History 5.16. ... [ὑπόμνημά ]
• Eusebius Church History 5.27.1) Numerous memorials [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of the ...
• Eusebius Church History 6.12.1) It is probable that others have preserved other memorials [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of ...
• Eusebius Church History 6.13. ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ] ... [Ὑποτυπώσεων, ]
• Eusebius Church History 6.17.1) Commentaries [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Symmachus
• Eusebius Church History 6.22. ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ]
• Eusebius Church History 6.23. ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ] ... [ὑπομνημάτων,4 ]
• Eusebius Church History 7.30. ... [ὑπομνημάτων, ]
• Eusebius Church History 9.5.1) Acts [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] of Pilate and our Saviour
• Eusebius Church History 9.7.1) The children in the schools had daily in their mouths the names of Jesus and Pilate, and the Acts [ὑπομνήματα, noun pl neut voc, from ὑπομνηματισμός] which had been forged ...

Forms of verb ἀπομνημονεύω:2
• Josephus, Jwr 1.223) to forget [ἀπεμνημόνευσεν, verb indicative aorist active 3rd person singular, from ἀπομνημονεύω] kindness
• Josephus, Jwr 7.431) to be banished (by formal decree) [ἀπομνημονεύοντι, verb participle present active dative masculine singular, from ἀπομνημονεύω]

• Josephus, Ant 8.387) would remember (bring to mind) [ἀπομνημονεύσειν, verb infinitive future active, from ἀπομνημονεύω]
• Josephus, Ant 14.212) we ... remember [ἀπομνημονεύσειν, verb infinitive future active]
• Josephus, Ant 14.315) remembrance [ἀπομνημονεύσαντας, verb participle aorist active accusative masculine plural, from ἀπομνημονεύω]
• Josephus, Ant 15.34) he ... remembered [ἀπομνημονεύσας, verb participle aorist active nominative masculine singular, from ἀπομνημονεύω]
• Josephus, Ant 15.376 or 377) attend to [ἀπομνημονευομένης, verb participle present passive, from ἀπομνημονεύω] something alleged

• Justin 1 Apology 33:5) as they who have recorded [ἀπομνημονεύσαντες, part pl aor act masc nom/voc, from ἀπομνημονεύω] all that concerns our Saviour Jesus Christ have taught

• Eusebius Church History, 3.39.15: ... the tradition [ἀπεμνημόνευσεν, verb futperf inf act or verb 3rd sg aor ind act nu_movable, from ἀπομνημονεύω] which he (Papias) gives ...
• Eusebius Church History, 4.18.9: ... Irenaeus quotes [ἀπομνημονεύειν, verb futperf inf act, from ἀπομνημονεύω] his words
• Eusebius Church History, 5.20.6: ... (Irenaeus says) And as he (Polycarp) remembered [ἀπεμνημόνευεν, verb 3rd sg imperf ind act, from ἀπομνημονεύω] their words (i.e., the words of those who had seen the Lord)
• Eusebius Church History, 6.25.13: ... someone who remembered [ἀπομνημονεύσαντός, part sg aor act masc/neuter gen, from ἀπομνημονεύω] the apostolic teachings

Forms of noun ἀπομνημόνευμα3
• Josephus: No forms of noun ἀπομνημόνευμα, it seems.

• Justin 1 Apology 66:3) For the apostles, in the memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] composed by them, which are called Gospels [εὐαγγέλια] ...
• Justin 1 Apology 67:3) and the memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύματα, noun pl neut voc/nom/acc, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read ...

• Justin Dialogue 100:4) And since we find it written in the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 101:3) words which are recorded in the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 103:6) It is narrated in the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 103:8) For in the Memoirs of the Apostles [ἀπομνημονεύμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] and their successors ...
• Justin Dialogue 104:1) This event, too, is recorded in the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles.
• Justin Dialogue 105:1) we have learned from the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονευμάτων, noun pl neut gen, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] (of the Apostles)] ...
• Justin Dialogue 105:5) For, the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονευμάτων, noun pl neut gen, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles said ...
• Justin Dialogue 105:6) are thus recorded in the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 106:1) according to the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 106:3) Now, when we learn from the Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of the Apostles ...
• Justin Dialogue 106:4) as the Apostolic Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασι, noun pl neut dat, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] attest.
• Justin Dialogue 107:1) And these [Apostolic] Memoirs [ἀπομνημονεύμασιν, noun pl neut dat nu_movable, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] ...

• Eusebius Church History 5 8:8) He [i.e., Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.27.1] mentions also the memoirs [ἀπομνημονευμάτων, noun pl neut gen, from ἀπομνημόνευμα] of a certain apostolic presbyter, whose name he passes by in silence ... o Actually, Irenaeus heard this unspecified source directly, not from a book of memoirs. Against Heresies 4.27.1 "As I have heard from a certain presbyter, who had heard it from those who had seen the apostles, and from those who had been their disciples [Quemadmodum audivi a quodam presbytero, qui audierat ab his qui Apostolos viderant, et ab his qui didicerant] ..."

The head, oh, it does spin!

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:53 pm
The head, oh, it does spin!

Be sure not to overlook Xenophon's four-book work about Socrates by the same name ... "memoirs" (Ἀπομνημονεύματα)
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John2
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Re: Quesionting Justin Martyr's Knowledge of the Canonical Gospels

Post by John2 »

Neil wrote:
Justin seems to prefer details that we find in noncanonical gospels over anything we read in the canonical counterparts. Doesn't it seem odd that noncanonical narrative details should have apparent pre-eminence over what became the canonical works, or even details that we would otherwise presume to be found in the "Memoirs of the Apostles" themselves?
At least one of these details, the "fire" at Jesus' baptism, is in the Gospel of the Hebrews, as Petersen, for example, notes here:
...Justin ... used -without comment, and apparently as his "standard text"- a text of Jesus' baptism which shares variants with this heretical "Hebrew Gospel."

https://books.google.com/books?id=E_Nuf ... el&f=false
And your graph here does not have this option.

http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm

I wouldn't mind seeing the other details you refer to.
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