Marcion Isn't a Slam Dunk for Mythicists

[MrMacSon]

I found the use of XCIC in the passage quite surprising. That it means 'Christ Jesus' is of course the orthodox solution. When I was flying recently I was wondering whether XCIC might have meant something else originally.
.

Something else you wrote recently made me wonder [again] if XC IC meant something else, too.

That commentary is pretty enlightening. I'm going to read more of Bk 1 ...

[perseusomega9]

If we're at the point that NS has subsumed the text then doesn't it make it that much harder distinguishing which individual names were originally present, especially if it's a conjunctive name at this point of transmission?

[MrMacSon]

.

It's interesting that Tertullian starts Adv. Marc. off with a 'preface' about the Euxine sea -

.
The Euxine Sea, as it is called, is self-contradictory in its nature, and deceptive in its name. As you would not account it hospitable from its situation, so is it severed from our more civilised waters by a certain stigma which attaches to its barbarous character. The fiercest nations inhabit it, if indeed it can be called habitation, when life is passed in waggons. They have no fixed abode; their life has no germ of civilization; they indulge their libidinous desires without restraint, and for the most part naked. Moreover, when they gratify secret lust, they hang up their quivers on their car-yokes, to warn off the curious and rash observer. Thus without a blush do they prostitute their weapons of war. The dead bodies of their parents they cut up with their sheep, and devour at their feasts. They who have not died so as to become food for others, are thought to have died an accursed death. Their women are not by their sex softened to modesty. They uncover the breast, from which they suspend their battle-axes, and prefer warfare to marriage.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03121.htm
.

It's also interesting what wikipedia [currently] says about the Euxine Sea - the Black Sea -

Historical names and etymology

The principal Greek name "Póntos Áxeinos" itself is generally accepted to be a rendering of Iranian *axšaina- (“dark colored”), cf. Avestan axšaēna- (“dark colored”), Old Persian axšaina- (color of turquoise), Middle Persian axšēn/xašēn ("blue"), and New Persian xašīn ("blue"), as well as Ossetic œxsīn (“dark gray").[13] The ancient Greeks subsequently adopted the name, reportedly in all likelihood those who lived to the north of the Black Sea, and altered it into á-xe(i)nos.[13]

Thereafter, Greek tradition refers to the Black Sea as the "Inhospitable Sea", Πόντος Ἄξεινος Póntos Áxeinos, first attested in Pindar (c. 475 BC).[13] The name, considered to be "ominous", was then later changed into the euphemism "Hospitable sea", Εὔξεινος Πόντος Eúxeinos Póntos, which was also for the first time attested in Pindar.[13] This became the commonly used designation in Greek for the sea.[13] In contexts related to mythology, the older form "Póntos Áxeinos" remained favored.[13]

Previously, it was erroneously suggested that the name had to be derived from the color of the water, or at least were to be related to climatic particulars.[13] Black (or dark), in this context however, referred to a system in which colors represented the various "cardinal points" of the known world.[13] Black, or dark represented the north, red the south, white for the west, and green or light blue for the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea ... _etymology

And about the acquisition of the religion by the Romans -

Following Polemon I's death in 8 BC, he was succeeded by his stepson Tiberius Julius Aspurgus as client king of the Bosporan Kingdom and by his second wife Pythodorida of Pontus became client queen of Pontus, Cilicia, and Colchis. Pythodorida would marry then King Archelaus*, the Roman client king of Cappadocia, in 8 BC, thereby joining the several eastern client kingdom under a single family. Following Archelaus' death in 14 AD, and the subsequent transformation of Cappadocia into a directly governed province in 18 AD, Pythodorida lost her title as queen of Cappadocia.

Pythodorida was succeeded by her stepson Polemon II of Pontus following her death in 38 AD. Polemon II ruled as a Roman client king over Pontus and Cilicia until the Roman Emperor Nero deposed him in 62 AD. Cilicia was then annexed into a directly governed Roman province and Pontus was re-incorporated in Cappadocia, then a directly governed Roman province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia_ ... Rump_State

* Archelaus gave greater attention to Gaius Caesar, one of Augustus’ grandsons, instead of Tiberius who was one of Augustus’ stepsons. This caused Tiberius to become jealous in time, leading to his hatred of him.[16] Between 2 BC–6 AD, Tiberius was living on the Greek island of Rhodes, while Gaius Caesar was in the Eastern Mediterranean performing various political and military duties on behalf of Augustus. Archelaus showed more attention to Gaius Caesar over Tiberius because Gaius was in the ascendant over Tiberius at the time as successor to the throne.

In 14 AD Augustus died and Tiberius succeeded his adoptive father as Roman Emperor. By this time, Archelaus’ health had failed.[20] In 17 AD, Archelaus had reigned over Cappadocia for fifty years and had lived to an advanced age.[29]

In Archelaus' final year in the Roman Empire, there was a shortage of funds for military pay and Tiberius wanted to integrate Archelaus’ kingdom into a Roman province.[30] Tiberius enticed Archelaus to come to Rome.[31] When he arrived in Rome he was accused by the Roman Senate of harboring revolutionary schemes. Tiberius hoped Archelaus would be condemned to death by the Senate.[16] However Archelaus was obliged to remain in Rome, where he died of natural causes (Tacitus leaves open the possibility that he may have committed suicide).[31] Cappadocia became a Roman province and his widow with her family returned to Pontus. The Romans gave Armenia Minor to his step-son Artaxias III to rule as Roman Client King, while the Cilician and the remaining territories of his former dominion were given to his son to rule as Roman Client King.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archelaus ... a#Tiberius

* cf Herod Archelaus ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea for a period of nine years (circa 4 BCE to 6 CE). Removed by Roman Emperor Augustus at the time of the Census of Quirinius, when Judaea province was formed under direct Roman rule. The son of Herod the Great (and Malthace the Samaritan); the brother of Herod Antipas, and the half-brother of Herod II. Archelaus (a name meaning "leading the people") came to power after the death of his father Herod the Great in 4 BCE, and ruled over one-half of the territorial dominion of his father.

Most of the western half of Pontus and the Greek cities of the coast, including Sinope, were annexed by Rome directly as part of the Roman province of Bithynia et Pontus. The interior and eastern coast remained an independent client kingdom. The Bosporan Kingdom also remained independent under Pharnaces II of Pontus as an ally and friend of Rome. Colchis was also made into a client Kingdom. Pharnaces II later made an attempt at reconquering Pontus. During the civil war of Caesar and Pompey, he invaded Asia Minor (48 BCE), taking Colchis, lesser Armenia, Pontus, and Cappadocia and defeating a Roman army at Nicopolis. Caesar responded swiftly and defeated him at Zela, where he uttered the famous phrase 'Veni, vidi, vici'.[29] Pontic kings continued to rule the client Kingdom of Pontus, Colchis, and Cilicia until Polemon II was forced to abdicate the Pontic throne by Nero in 62 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_o ... t_kingdoms

[MrMacSon]

Later -

.
All things are torpid, all stiff with cold. Nothing there has the glow of life, but that ferocity which has given to scenic plays their stories of the sacrifices of the Taurians, and the loves of the Colchians, and the torments of the Caucasus.

Nothing, however, in Pontus is so barbarous and sad as the fact that Marcion was born there, fouler than any Scythian, more roving than the waggon-life of the Sarmatian, more inhuman than the Massagete, more audacious than an Amazon, darker than the cloud, (of Pontus) colder than its winter, more brittle than its ice, more deceitful than the Ister, more craggy than Caucasus.

Nay more, the true Prometheus, Almighty God, is mangled by Marcion's blasphemies. Marcion is more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region. For what beaver was ever a greater emasculator than he who has abolished the nuptial bond? What Pontic mouse ever had such gnawing powers as he who has gnawed the Gospels to pieces?

Verily, O Euxine, you have produced a monster more credible to philosophers than to Christians*.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03121.htm
.

* I wonder what the original Latin was (?)

[Secret Alias]

It could mean that Marcion was from Pontus. It is also worth noting that Papias mentions 'letters' from the Christian community of Pontus in relation to Marcion meaning that he (and perhaps the world) learned about Marcion from the community at Pontus.

[MrMacSon]

It could mean that Marcion was from Pontus. It is also worth noting that Papias mentions 'letters' from the Christian community of Pontus in relation to Marcion meaning that he (and perhaps the world) learned about Marcion from the community at Pontus.
.

Sure. That's most parsimonious.

But note, from Adv Marc I, 1 -

.
The Euxine Sea, as it is called, is self-contradictory in its nature, and deceptive in its name.
.

And, from Wikipedia and from Encyclopedia Iranica -

Greek tradition refers to the Black Sea as the "Inhospitable Sea", Πόντος Ἄξεινος Póntos Áxeinos ...

... In contexts related to mythology, [that] older form - "Póntos Áxeinos" - remained favored.^[13]

-----------------------------------

13 The form Póntos Áxeinos, which is regarded as older by all the ancient authors (Ps.-Scymnus, 735ff., Ovid Tristia 4.4.55ff., Strabo, 7.3.6, Pliny, Naturalis historia 4.76, 6.1, etc.), is favored in mythological contexts. The isolated Póntos Mélas “black sea” in Euripides Iphi­genia in Tauris 107 may be a poetic metaphor, rather than the calque of a foreign expression. Simple Pontus, with ellipsis of the adjective, became most widely used in Greek and Latin, but the “old” name seems to have survived with its original meaning in the Near East, until the Turks borrowed it and propagated it anew ...

The Pontus Euxinus was relatively well known to the Greek world, at least from classical times, as a result of the close relations between the Greek colonies established on its coasts and their metropolises, relations that were not limited to commerce ...

The available sources clearly indicate that the relations of the Pontus region with the Greek world were more intensive than those with the Persian empire ...

Encyclopedia Iranica

Back to Tertullian -

.
Nothing, however, in Pontus is so barbarous and sad as the fact that Marcion was born there, fouler than any Scythian*, more roving than the waggon-life of the Sarmatian, more inhuman than the Massagete, more audacious than an Amazon, darker than the cloud, (of Pontus) colder than its winter, more brittle than its ice, more deceitful than the Ister, more craggy than Caucasus.

Nay more, the true Prometheus, Almighty God, is mangled by Marcion's blasphemies. Marcion is more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region. For what beaver was ever a greater emasculator than he who has abolished the nuptial bond? What Pontic mouse ever had such gnawing powers as he who has gnawed the Gospels to pieces?

Verily, O Euxine, you have produced a monster ...

Adv. Marc. I, 1
.

* Scythian is mentioned 15 times in the Encyclopedia Iranica -

The Black Sea was known for its depth and intense currents, on the surface as well as in the depths, which impeded ships. In the Greeks’ view the climate of the littorals was cold and stormy (especially along the western and northern shores), cloudy, misty, and, if compared with that of the Aegean sea, intolerably bleak and inhospitable, especially as there are no islands. They observed icy northerly storms (cf. the famous Boreas); severe frost and biting cold in the Thracian and Scythian winter ...

The most important of the ethnic groups living there were the Scythian-Sarmatian (thus Iranian) and Thracian tribes. The Bithynians, Thynians, Mariandyni, Cauconians, Paphlagonians, and other Pontic tribes on the northern Anatolian shore are described in detail and from first-hand knowledge by Strabo (especially 12.3.3ff.), who was a native of Amaseia/Pontus ...

The country of “the (peoples) at the sea” has been identified as the great satrapy in the northwest and apparently also at times the northern part of Asia Minor governed from Dascyleium (Schmitt, 1972). Saka, or Scythia, encompassed all the land from the Oxus river to the Black Sea inhabited by Scythian tribes, so far as it belonged to the Achaemenid empire; parts of the Black Sea region are included in Armenia and Cappadocia. In later lists of peoples and countries other names occur, among them “the countries beyond the sea” (DPe 14ff., Kent, Old Persian, p. 136, presumably the European regions of Thracia and Scythia), Thracia (OPers. Skudra, DNa 29, etc., Kent, p. 137), and a triad of Saka tribes the localization of which is not entirely clear (see Litvinskiĭ), among them the “Scythians beyond the sea” (OPers. Sakā tayaiy paradraya, DNa 28f., etc.). Such shifts and administrative reorgani­zations in the Black Sea area were probably caused by new conquests during the time of Darius I (522-486 b.c.).

Encyclopedia Iranica

Is Strabo the Greek geographer, philosopher, and historian who lived in Asia Minor during the transitional period of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire ( Strabo - /ˈstreɪboʊ/; Greek: Στράβων Strabōn; c. 64 BC – c. 24 AD)?

• ie. who's accounts may have been readily available?

• eta: and are still available - Geographica

• eta2 -

Codex Vaticanus Graecus 2061, usually known as Uncial 048 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), α1 (Soden), is a Greek uncial manuscript on parchment. It contains some parts of the New Testament, homilies of several authors, and Strabo's Geographica. Formerly it was known also as the Codex Basilianus 100, earlier as Codex Patriniensis 27.[1] It was designated by ב ^{a, p}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus_2061

[MrMacSon]

.

It's interesting that Tertullian starts Adv. Marc. off with a 'preface' about the Euxine sea -

.
The Euxine Sea, as it is called, is self-contradictory in its nature, and deceptive in its name. As you would not account it hospitable from its situation, so is it severed from our more civilised waters by a certain stigma which attaches to its barbarous character. The fiercest nations inhabit it, if indeed it can be called habitation¹, when life is passed in waggons. They have no fixed abode; their life has no germ of civilization; they indulge their libidinous desires without restraint, and for the most part naked. Moreover, when they gratify secret lust, they hang up their quivers on their car-yokes, to warn off the curious and rash observer.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03121.htm
.

Roger Pearse's site gives us a translation by Mark Evans -

The sea called Euxine, or hospitable, is belied by its nature and put to ridicule by its name. Even its situation would prevent you from reckoning Pontus hospitable: as though ashamed of its own barbarism it has set itself at a distance from our more civilized waters. Strange tribes inhabit it —if indeed living in a wagon can be called inhabiting.¹

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/evan ... k1_eng.htm

1. ¹ On the customs of the Massagetae, Herodotus i. 216.
.

So it is possible, as per some of the commentary in Encylcopedia Iranica, that Tertullian was using works as far back as Herodotus(?)

.

[Secret Alias]

Why is that surprising?

[Secret Alias]

I've been musing that it might have been a transcription of תשיש = weak, feeble. The question for me has always been:

1. if there was an original gospel written in Hebrew or Aramaic
2. and if the Greek gospel took over divine names at the start of the process toward nomina sacra

what was the original Hebrew terminology behind XCIC? I've mused before about 'man' = eesh being behind IC. What I find even more interesting is the awkwardness of XCIC. How could Tertullian for instance say that 'Christ Jesus' descended from heaven given that he hadn't been anointed at the start of the gospel? You'd have to suspect that one was the Christ only after being anointed (and for that matter it has always struck me as odd that Jesus was ever identified as 'anointed one' when anointing and enthronement does not figure prominently in the gospel as one would suspect if it were a messianic document).

But if - let's say - there was an original Aramaic text and Paul especially made frequent terminology to the masculine noun תשיש = weak (one), feeble (one). The tau might well have looked like a chi on the page



The idea of the Marcionites say that the Creator was weak, feeble, less than perfect is well attested. However I don't think it is well understood as an attested position within Judaism. Let's look at the most explicit statement about Marcion's attitude toward Moses and Yahweh:

So he swears by himself, so that you may believe God, at least on his own oath, that there is no other god at all. And it is you, Marcion, who have forced God to do this: for even so long ago God had foreknowledge of you. Consequently if in his promises, and in his threatenings besides, God uses an oath in dragging forth that faith which in its beginnings is hard to attain to, there is nothing unworthy of God in that which causes men to believe in God. On that other occasion also God made himself little even in the midst of his fierce anger, when in his wrath against the people because of the consecration of the (golden) calf he demanded of his servant Moses, Let me alone, and I will wax hot in wrath and destroy them, and I will make thee into a great nation. On this you are in the habit of insisting that Moses was a better person than his own God—deprecating, yes and even forbidding, his wrath: for he says, Thou shalt not do this: or else destroy me along with them. Greatly to be pitied are you, as well as the Israelites, for not realizing that in the person of Moses there is a prefiguring of Christ, who intercedes with the Father, and offers his own soul for the saving of the people. But for the present it is enough that the people were granted even to Moses in his own person. Also, so that the servant might be in a position to make this request of his Lord, the Lord made that request of himself. That is why he said to his servant, Let me alone and I will destroy them, so that the servant might forestall this by his prayer and his offering of himself, and so that you by this might learn how much is permitted to one who has faith, and is a prophet, in the presence of God. [Adv Marc 2.26]

Exodus 32:10 is a well known objection against Yahweh being the Almighty God. In Berakoth 32 we read:

ואמר רבי אלעזר משה הטיח דברים כלפי מעלה שנאמר (במדבר יא, ב) ויתפלל משה אל ה' אל תקרי אל ה' אלא על ה'
And Rabbi Elazar said: Moses also spoke impertinently toward God on High, as it is stated: “And Moses prayed to the Lord (and the fire subsided)” (Numbers 11:2), Do not read to [el] the Lord, but rather onto [al] the Lord, (which indicates that he spoke impertinently).

שכן דבי רבי אליעזר בן יעקב קורין לאלפין עיינין ולעיינין אלפין
As the school of Rabbi Eliezer ben Ya’akov would read alef as ayin and ayin as alef (and in this case transforming el into al).

דבי רבי ינאי אמרי מהכא (דברים א, א) ודי זהב
The school of Rabbi Yannai, say (proof that Moses spoke impertinently toward God on High is derived) from here (Moses’ rebuke at the beginning of Deuteronomy): “And Di Zahav” (Deuteronomy 1:1). (This is an entry in a list of places where Moses had spoken to Israel. As there was no place encountered by that name, it is interpreted as an allusion to another matter).

מאי ודי זהב אמרי דבי ר' ינאי כך אמר משה לפני הקב"ה רבונו של עולם בשביל כסף וזהב שהשפעת להם לישראל עד שאמרו די הוא גרם שעשו את העגל
What is (the meaning of and) Di Zahav? The school of Rabbi Yannai said that Moses said the following before the Holy One, Blessed be He, (to atone for Israel after the sin of the Golden Calf): Master of the Universe, because of the gold and silver that you lavished upon Israel (during the exodus from Egypt) until they said enough [dai]; (it was this wealth) that caused (Israel) to make the Golden Calf.

אמרי דבי ר' ינאי אין ארי נוהם מתוך קופה של תבן אלא מתוך קופה של בשר
(Establishing a general moral principle, the Sages) the school of Rabbi Yannai said: A lion does not roar (standing) over a basket of straw ()from which he derives no pleasure), but (he roars) standing over a basket of meat, (as he only roars when satiated).

...

(שמות לב, ז) וידבר ה' אל משה לך רד מאי לך רד אמר רבי אלעזר אמר לו הקדוש ב"ה למשה משה רד מגדולתך כלום נתתי לך גדולה אלא בשביל ישראל ועכשיו ישראל חטאו אתה למה לי מיד תשש כחו של משה ולא היה לו כח לדבר וכיון שאמר (דברים ט, יד) הרף ממני ואשמידם אמר משה דבר זה תלוי בי מיד עמד ונתחזק בתפלה ובקש רחמים
(The Gemara elaborates upon additional aspects of the sin of the Golden Calf. It is stated:) “And the Lord said to Moses: Go and descend, (for your people whom you have lifted out of the land of Egypt have been corrupted”) (Exodus 32:7). What is (the meaning of) “go and descend”? Rabbi Elazar said: The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Moses: Moses, descend from your greatness. Isn’t it only for the sake of Israel, (so that you may serve as an emissary), that I granted you prominence; and now that Israel has sinned, why do I (need) you? (There is no need for an emissary). Immediately, Moses’ strength waned and he was powerless to speak (in defense of Israel). And once (God) said (to Moses): “Leave Me be, that I may destroy them” (Deuteronomy 9:19), Moses said (to himself: If God is telling me to let Him be, it must be because) this matter is dependent upon me. Immediately Moses stood and was strengthened in prayer, and asked (that God have) mercy (on the nation of Israel and forgive them for their transgression).

...

(שמות לב, י) ועתה הניחה לי ויחר אפי בהם ואכלם ואעשה אותך לגוי גדול וגו' אמר רבי אבהו אלמלא מקרא כתוב אי אפשר לאומרו מלמד שתפסו משה להקדוש ברוך הוא כאדם שהוא תופס את חבירו בבגדו ואמר לפניו רבונו של עולם אין אני מניחך עד שתמחול ותסלח להם:
(In an additional aspect of the sin of the Golden Calf, God told Moses:) “Now leave Me be, that My wrath will be enraged against them and I will consume them; and I will make of you a great nation” (Exodus 32:10). (Explaining this verse), Rabbi Abbahu said: Were the verse not written (in this manner) it would be impossible to utter it, (in deference to God. The phrase: Leave Me be), teaches that Moses grabbed the Holy One, Blessed be He, as a person who grabs his friend by his garment (would), and he said before Him: Master of the Universe, I will not leave You be until You forgive and pardon them.

(שמות לב, י) ואעשה אותך לגוי גדול וגו' אמר רבי אלעזר אמר משה לפני הקדוש ב"ה רבונו של עולם ומה כסא של שלש רגלים אינו יכול לעמוד לפניך בשעת כעסך כסא של רגל אחד על אחת כמה וכמה
In the same verse, God promised Moses: “And I will make of you a great nation.” What was Moses’ response? Rabbi Elazar said: Moses said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, if a chair with three legs, the collective merit of the three forefathers, is unable to stand before You in Your moment of wrath, all the more so that a chair with one leg, my merit alone, will be unable to withstand your wrath.

ולא עוד אלא שיש בי בושת פנים מאבותי עכשיו יאמרו ראו פרנס שהעמיד עליהם בקש גדולה לעצמו ולא בקש עליהם רחמים:
Moreover, but I have a sense of shame before my forefathers. Now they will say: See this leader that God placed over Israel. He requested greatness for himself but did not pray for God to have mercy upon them in their troubled time.

(שמות לב, יא) ויחל משה את פני ה' אמר רבי אלעזר מלמד שעמד משה בתפלה לפני הקדוש ברוך הוא עד שהחלהו ורבא אמר עד שהפר לו נדרו כתיב הכא ויחל וכתיב התם (במדבר ל, ג) לא יחל דברו ואמר מר הוא אינו מיחל אבל אחרים מחלין לו
The Torah continues: “And Moses beseeched [vayḥal] before the Lord” (Exodus 32:11). Many interpretations were given for this uncommon term, vayḥal: Rabbi Elazar said: It teaches that Moses stood in prayer before the Holy One, Blessed be He, until it made him ill [heḥelahu] from overexertion. And Rava said: Moses stood in prayer until he nullified His vow, as the term vayḥal alludes to nullification of an oath. Here it is written vayḥal, and there referring to vows, it is written: “He shall not nullify [lo yaḥel] his word” (Numbers 30:3). And with regard to vows, the Master said: He who vowed cannot nullify his vow, but others, the court, can nullify his vow for him. Here, it is as if Moses nullified the Lord’s vow to destroy Israel.

ושמואל אמר מלמד שמסר עצמו למיתה עליהם שנאמר (שמות לב, לב) ואם אין מחני נא מספרך
And Shmuel said: The term vayḥal teaches that Moses gave his life, from the term ḥalal, a dead person, for Israel, as it is stated: “And if not, erase me, please, from Your book” (Exodus 32:32).

אמר רבא אמר רב יצחק מלמד שהחלה עליהם מדת רחמים
Rava, also interpreting this verse, said that Rav Yitzḥak said: The term vayḥal teaches that he caused the Divine Attribute of Mercy to take effect [heḥela] upon them.

ורבנן אמרי מלמד שאמר משה לפני הקב"ה רבש"ע חולין הוא לך מעשות כדבר הזה
And the Rabbis say that this term constitutes the essence of Moses’ claim: It teaches that Moses said before the Holy One Blessed be He: It is a sacrilege [ḥullin] for You to do something like this.

ויחל משה את פני ה' תניא רבי אליעזר הגדול אומר מלמד שעמד משה בתפלה לפני הקדוש ברוך הוא עד שאחזתו אחילו מאי אחילו אמר רבי אלעזר אש של עצמות מאי אש של עצמות אמר אביי אשתא דגרמי
And another interpretation of the verse, “And Moses beseeched [vayḥal] before the Lord.” It was taught in a baraita: Rabbi Eliezer the Great says: This term teaches that Moses stood in prayer until he was overcome by aḥilu. Even the Sages were unfamiliar with this term. Therefore, the Gemara asks: What is the meaning of aḥilu? Rabbi Elazar, an amora of Eretz Yisrael, said that aḥilu is fire in the bones. However, this expression was familiar in Eretz Yisrael but not in Babylonia. They asked in Babylonia: What is the disease that they called fire of the bones? Abaye said that is a disease known in Babylonia as eshta degarmei, which in Aramaic means fire of the bones; in other words, a fever.

(שמות לב, יג) זכור לאברהם ליצחק ולישראל עבדיך אשר נשבעת להם בך מאי בך אמר רבי אלעזר אמר משה לפני הקדוש ב"ה רבונו של עולם אלמלא נשבעת להם בשמים ובארץ הייתי אומר כשם ששמים וארץ בטלים כך שבועתך בטלה ועכשיו שנשבעת להם בשמך הגדול מה שמך הגדול חי וקיים לעולם ולעולמי עולמים כך שבועתך קיימת לעולם ולעולמי עולמים:
As Moses continues his prayer, he says: “Remember Abraham, Isaac and Israel Your servants, to whom You swore in Your name” (Exodus 32:13). What is the meaning of in Your name? Rabbi Elazar said: Moses said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, had You sworn to them by the heavens and the earth, I would say: Just as the heavens and the earth will ultimately be no more, so too Your oath will be null and void. Now that You swore to them by Your great name, just as Your name lives and stands for all eternity, so too does Your oath live and stand for all eternity.

(שמות לב, יג) ותדבר אליהם ארבה את זרעכם ככוכבי השמים וכל הארץ הזאת אשר אמרתי האי אשר אמרתי אשר אמרת מיבעי ליה
In this verse, Moses continues: “And You said to them: I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your offspring that they shall inherit it forever.” The Gemara clarifies a puzzling phrase in this verse. That phrase of which I have spoken, it should have said: Of which You have spoken, as Moses is referring to God’s promise to the forefathers.

אמר רבי אלעזר עד כאן דברי תלמיד מכאן ואילך דברי הרב ורבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר אלו ואלו דברי תלמיד אלא כך אמר משה לפני הקדוש ברוך הוא רבונו של עולם דברים שאמרת לי לך אמור להם לישראל בשמי הלכתי ואמרתי להם בשמך עכשיו מה אני אומר להם:
Rabbi Elazar said: To this point, the verse cites the words of the student, Moses; from this point, and all this land of which I have spoken, the verse cites the words of the Master, God. And Rabbi Shmuel bar Naḥmani said: These and those are the words of the student; Moses spoke the entire verse. Rather, Moses said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, those matters which You told me to go and say to Israel in My name, I went and told it to them in Your name. I have already told Israel of God’s promise to the forefathers. Now what do I say to them?

(במדבר יד, טז) מבלתי יכולת ה' יכול ה' מיבעי ליה
The Gemara moves to a discussion of additional prayers offered by Moses. Moses said that if God fails to bring the Jewish people into Eretz Yisrael, the nations of the world will say: “The Lord did not have the ability [yekholet] to bring this people into the land which He swore to them, and He killed them in the desert” (Numbers 14:16). The Gemara examines this verse closely: The verse should not have utilized the term yekholet, an abstract feminine noun, but rather, it should have said: “The Lord was not able [yakhol],” a masculine verb.

אמר רבי אלעזר אמר משה לפני הקב"ה רבש"ע עכשיו יאמרו אומות העולם תשש כחו כנקבה ואינו יכול להציל אמר הקב"ה למשה והלא כבר ראו נסים וגבורות שעשיתי להם על הים אמר לפניו רבונו של עולם עדיין יש להם לומר למלך אחד יכול לעמוד לשלשים ואחד מלכים אינו יכול לעמוד
Rabbi Elazar said: Moses phrased it that way because he said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, now the nations of the world will say that His strength weakened like a female and He is unable to rescue the nation of Israel. The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Moses: And did the nations of the world not already see the miracles and the mighty acts that I performed on behalf of Israel at the Red Sea? Moses said before Him: Master of the Universe, they can still say: The Lord can stand up to a single king like Pharaoh and defeat him, but He is unable stand up to the thirty-one kings in the land of Canaan.

אמר ר' יוחנן מנין שחזר הקדוש ברוך הוא והודה לו למשה שנאמר (במדבר יד, כ) ויאמר ה' סלחתי כדברך תני דבי רבי ישמעאל כדבריך עתידים אוה"ע לומר כן
Rabbi Yoḥanan said: From where is it derived that the Holy One, Blessed be He, ultimately conceded to Moses? As it is said: “And the Lord said: I have forgiven according to your word” (Numbers 14:20). The Sages of the school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: According to your word, it will be, as indeed in the future the nations of the world will say this.

אשרי תלמיד שרבו מודה לו
The Gemara concludes: Happy is the student whose teacher concedes to him as the Lord conceded to Moses.

(במדבר יד, כא) ואולם חי אני אמר רבא אמר רב יצחק מלמד שאמר לו הקדוש ב"ה למשה משה החייתני בדבריך:
Explaining the next verse, “Nevertheless, as I live, and the glory of the Lord fills the entire world” (Numbers 14:21), Rava said that Rav Yitzḥak said: This teaches that the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Moses: Moses, you have given Me life with your words. I am happy that on account of your arguments, I will forgive Israel.

דרש רבי שמלאי לעולם יסדר אדם שבחו של הקב"ה ואחר כך יתפלל מנלן ממשה דכתיב (דברים ג, כג) ואתחנן אל ה' בעת ההיא וכתיב ה' אלהים אתה החלות להראות את עבדך את גדלך ואת ידך החזקה אשר מי אל בשמים ובארץ אשר יעשה כמעשיך וכגבורותיך וכתיב בתריה אעברה נא ואראה את הארץ הטובה וגו':
Based on Moses’ prayers, Rabbi Simlai taught: One should always set forth praise of the Holy One, Blessed be He, and then pray for his own needs. From where do we derive that one should conduct himself in this manner? From Moses, as it is written in his prayer: “And I beseeched the Lord at that time” (Deuteronomy 3:23). And immediately afterward in his prayer, it is written: “Lord, God, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your strong hand, for what God is there in the heavens or on earth who can perform deeds such as Yours and Your might” (Deuteronomy 3:24)? Here, Moses began with praise of God, and it is only thereafter that it is written: “Please, let me pass over and see the good land that is beyond the Jordan, that good hill country and the Lebanon” (Deuteronomy 3:25). Only after his praise did Moses make his personal request.

(סימן מעשי"ם צדק"ה קרב"ן כה"ן תעני"ת מנע"ל ברז"ל):
The Gemara prefaces the next discourse with a mnemonic symbol: Deeds, charity, offering, priest, fast, shoe, iron.

I will explain this at more length but clearly all Marcion's position related to the Golden Calf incident from multiple sources are attested in this tractate. Marcionism is therefore an attested Jewish - most clearly associated with the school of Yannai. I think it highly probable they called the second god 'the weak one.' But have to go to work right now ...

[Secret Alias]

What I suspect could have occurred (of course a very preliminary and untested hypothesis) was that in the first century a gospel floated around with a mythical story of the second god, the Creator, described as the 'weak one' which greatly insulted the Roman authorities (for it would seem to describe the ruler of the world = Caesar as a weakling). In due course various Roman sects headed by the figures described by Irenaeus 'played with' the Hebrew letters to develop a doctrine of two figures - one 'Chrestos' or 'Christ' = XC and the other a human 'Jesus' = IC. Just a thought.