Marcion Isn't a Slam Dunk for Mythicists

[ChrisPal]

The key thing to realize is that HGH-X2 simply works no matter what these modern 'Marcionophiles' claim the stated positions of the sect in the Patristic literature are attested Jewish interpretations of the Pentateuch. In other words, the Marcionites were Jewish. To start imagining other scenarios is simply a waste of time.

Very interesting subject. Definitely something to consider.

[Secret Alias]

The key thing to realize is that no matter what these modern 'Marcionophiles' claim the stated positions of the sect in the Patristic literature are attested Jewish interpretations of the Pentateuch. In other words, the Marcionites were Jewish. To start imagining other scenarios is simply a waste of time.

[Giuseppe]

No you're not getting my point. Tertullian doesn't actually say that Jesus floated down from heaven. The context implies only that Christ came down from heaven. This might be the vestige of a reference to the John baptism or an allusion to Christ coming down from heaven. I tend to think the former just for simplicity sake.

If for ''context'' you mean this:

'Yes, but our god,' the Marcionites rejoin, 'though not re-
vealed from the beginning, or by virtue of any creation, yet has
by his own self been revealed in Christ Jesus.' One of my books1
will have reference to Christ and all that he stands for: for the
divisions of our subject have to be kept distinct, so as to receive
more complete and orderly treatment. For the time it must suffice
to follow up bur present argument so far as to prove, and that in
few words, that Christ Jesus is the representative of no other god
than the Creator. 'In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar Christ
Jesus vouchsafed to glide down from heaven, a salutary spirit.'
In what year of the elder Antoninus the pestilential breeze of
Marcion's salvation, whose opinion this was, breathed out from
his own Pontus, I have forborne to inquire. But of this I am sure,
that he is an Antoninian heretic, impious under Pius. Now from
Tiberius to Antoninus there are a matter of a hundred and fifteen
and a half years and half a month. This length of time do they
posit between Christ and Marcion. Since therefore it was under
Antoninus that, as I have proved, Marcion first brought this god
on the scene, at once, if you are in your senses, the fact is clear.
The dates themselves put it beyond argument that that which
first came to light under Antoninus did not come to light under
Tiberius: that is, that the god of Antoninus' reign was not the
God of the reign of Tiberius, and therefore he who it is admitted
was first reported to exist by Marcion, had not been revealed
by Christ.

I find a little forced to derive a hypothetical marcionite adoptionism from these words. ''A salutary spirit'' is ''Christ Jesus'' and not only ''Christ''.

[Secret Alias]

But the context is 'Christ' - look at the passage again. He takes Christ Jesus and Christ as synonyms.

[MrMacSon]

Why is that surprising?

That Tertullian seems to have been using works as far back as Herodotus (?) as proposed in a post on page 2 ?

Tertullian is, despite his role in Marcionite studies, largely an unknown character. Who was based in Carthage. Who is not described as travelling or living elsewhere. Why is he writing lyrically about the Euxine, the Black Sea, aka The Pontus ??

.
The form Póntos Áxeinos, which is regarded as older by all the ancient authors (Ps.-Scymnus, 735ff., Ovid Tristia 4.4.55ff., Strabo, 7.3.6, Pliny, Naturalis historia 4.76, 6.1, etc.), is favored in mythological contexts. The isolated Póntos Mélas “black sea” in Euripides Iphi­genia in Tauris 107 may be a poetic metaphor, rather than the calque of a foreign expression. Simple Pontus, with ellipsis of the adjective, became most widely used in Greek and Latin, but the “old” name seems to have survived with its original meaning in the Near East, until the Turks borrowed it and propagated it anew ...

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/black-sea
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Strabo (7.3.6) and Pliny, Naturalis historia (~79 AD), are getting close to contemporary to the development of the new theology.

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[MrMacSon]

I've been musing that it might have been a transcription of תשיש = weak, feeble. The question for me has always been:

1. if there was an original gospel written in Hebrew or Aramaic
2. and if the Greek gospel took over divine names at the start of the process toward nomina sacra

what was the original Hebrew terminology behind XCIC? I've mused before about 'man' = eesh being behind IC ..

Certainly there is a lot of Judaism in Christianity. But Christianity is not a solely Jewish-derived religion.

Christianity is a syncretic religion, and there are likely to have been other influences: perhaps Egyptian (possibly involving the Corpus Hermeticum); perhaps other 'pagan' or 'Gentile' religion, upon which Judaism may have been laid, rather than pagan or Gentile influences being laid on Judaism.

Pagan and gentile are convenient words of dismissal, or words of convenient dismissal, take your pick.

eta: but none of that precludes exploring any avenue as far as possible; nomina sacra origins; reasons for Tertullian's writings; etc.

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[Secret Alias]

But Christianity is not a solely Jewish-derived religion. Christianity is a syncretic religion

You realize when you make assertions don't you? I know the ancient sources don't say that Christianity is properly identified as such. An example is the Wikipedia page for religious syncretism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism - Christianity as such is not identified as a syncretic religion. You know the Patristic sources wouldn't agree with your assertion. So once you recognize you are making an assertion it should sound like you are making an argument not a stated fact. That's why it might be useful to follow up your assertion with some 'shout out' to a particular source or a familiar study which supports your claims. It makes things easier for everyone.

[Secret Alias]

Tertullian is, despite his role in Marcionite studies, largely an unknown character. Who was based in Carthage. Who is not described as travelling or living elsewhere.

But there were public and private libraries in antiquity. I am hardly surprised that an educated person cited or alluded to Herodotus. I would be more surprised in fact if they didn't know or use Herodotus when reporting about far away people.

[MrMacSon]

But Christianity is not a solely Jewish-derived religion. Christianity is a syncretic religion

You realize when you make assertions don't you?

Yes, I was well aware I was make an assertion in that statement, but there has been a reasonable amount of discussion of the proposition that Christianity is a syncretic religion. Most if not all mainstream discussions avoid them.

I know the ancient sources don't say that Christianity is properly identified as such ... You know the Patristic sources wouldn't agree with your assertion.

They won't say it overtly, but the patristic and other ancient sources ought to be looked at with syncretism or, as the 'Early Christianity' section of the Wikipedia religious syncretism page alludes, assimilation (I think there's generally some weasel-words and smoke n mirrors in a lot of this, including the brief description of Christianity) -

The Church has assimilated many (though not all) of the ideas of Plato and Aristotle. Augustine of Hippo is remembered for assimilating the ideas of Plato, while Thomas Aquinas is known for doing so with the ideas of Aristotle. In his essay on the development of Christian doctrine, John Henry Newman clarified the idea of assimilation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... ristianity

Previously, that section says, rather loosely, and finishing with reference to 'Christian synthesis'-

Gnosticism is identified as an early form of syncretism^{[citation needed]} that challenged the beliefs of early Christians.^{[citation needed]} Gnostic dualism posited that only spiritual or invisible things were good, and that material or visible things were evil. Orthodox Christians have always insisted that matter is essentially good, since, as they believe, God created all things, both spiritual and material, and said that it was "very good".Simon Magus appears as one of the early proponents of Gnosticism, and is considered by some as one of its founders. He was denounced by many Church authorities, including Peter himself, and is regarded by some as the source of all heresies.

In the first few centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus, there were various competing "Jesus movements". The Roman emperors used syncretism to help unite the expanding empire.^[7] Social conversion to Christianity happened all over Europe. It became even more effective when missionaries concurred with established cultural traditions and interlaced them into a fundamentally Christian synthesis.^[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... ristianity

7 Freke, Timothy; Gandy, Peter (1999). The Jesus Mysteries. United Kingdom: Harmony. ISBN 0609807986.

8 Jerry Bentley, Old World Encounters: Cross-Cultural Contacts and Exchanges in Pre-Modern Times (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993).

So, so far we had assimilation, synthesis, and other terms. Then we get other words and terms -

One can contrast Christian syncretism with 'contextualization' or 'inculturation', the practice of making [early] Christianity [and other religions] relevant to a culture: Contextualisation does not address the doctrine but affects a change in the styles or expression of worship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... ristianity

We know Judaism was similarly changing.

We see lots of references to later times, but not to antiquity. Few people have wanted to address it.

eta: and I haven't look further, at this stage.
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[MrMacSon]

Tertullian is, despite his role in Marcionite studies, largely an unknown character. Who was based in Carthage. Who is not described as travelling or living elsewhere.

But there were public and private libraries in antiquity. I am hardly surprised that an educated person cited or alluded to Herodotus. I would be more surprised in fact if they didn't know or use Herodotus when reporting about far away people.

Sure. But my point was Tertullian appears to have borrowed a phrase from H. in the context of waxing lyrical about the Euxine (the Black Sea), aka The Pontus [at the start of Adv. Marc.]. Context is key.