Who Was On Top?

[Secret Alias]

Jesus from heaven, Christ born through Mary (like a tube) and then Christ comes into Jesus at baptism:

Now I continue with what they say about Christ on whom they graft Jesus with the same liberty (nunc reddo de Christo in quem tanta licentia Iesum) as when they stuff the spirit-like seed in him along with the soul-like breath. They make him a mash of inventions of both Men and gods: the Demiurge also has his own Christ, his natural son (consequently soul-like), produced from himself, preached by the prophets. His nature must be decided by prepositions: specifically, he was produced through a virgin, not from a virgin, because he came into existence carried in a virgin in a transportational, not a generational, sense. He came through her, not from her; he experienced her not as a mother but as a conveyance. Upon this Christ, then, in the sacrament of baptism, Jesus descended in the form of a dove. Apart from this, there was even in this Christ spice from the spirit-like seed of Achamoth- to keep the rest of the stuffing from spoiling, I presume. Following the analogy of the first Tetrad, they crowd him with four substances: the spirit-like from Achamoth, the soul-like from the Demiurge, the bodily which is indescribable, and the substance from Saviour, namely dove-like. Saviour at any rate remained in Christ untouched, unhurt, unknown. Finally, when captured, he left him during Pilate's questioning. Likewise, the seed from his mother did not receive injury, being equally, immune and unknown even to the Demiurge. The soul-like and bodily Christ suffered to illustrate the experience of the higher Christ who was stretched on Cross, otherwise known as Horos, when he shaped Achamoth in essence, though not in intelligible form. In such a way everything becomes an illustration or image ; even, obviously, these Christians themselves are imaginary. (Adv Val 27)

There are also some who maintain that he also produced Christ as his own proper son, but of an animal nature, and that mention was made of him by the prophets. This Christ passed through Mary just as water flows through a tube; and there descended upon him in the form of a dove it the time of his baptism, that Saviour who belonged to the Pleroma, and was formed by the combined efforts of all its inhabitants. In him there existed also that spiritual seed which proceeded from Achamoth. They hold, accordingly, that our Lord, while preserving the type of the first-begotten and primary tetrad, was compounded of these four substances,--of that which is spiritual, in so far as He was from Achamoth; of that which is animal, as being from the Demiurge by a special dispensation, inasmuch as He was formed [corporeally] with unspeakable skill; and of the Saviour, as respects that dove which descended upon Him. He also continued free from all suffering, since indeed it was not possible that He should suffer who was at once incomprehensible and invisible. And for this reason the Spirit of Christ, who had been placed within Him, was taken away when He was brought before Pilate. They maintain, further, that not even the seed which He had received from the mother [Achamoth] was subject to suffering; for it, too, was impassible, as being spiritual, and invisible even to the Demiurge himself. It follows, then, according to them, that the animal Christ, and that which had been formed mysteriously by a special dispensation, underwent suffering, that the mother might exhibit through him a type of the Christ above, namely, of him who extended himself through Stauros, and imparted to Achamoth shape, so far as substance was concerned. For they declare that all these transactions were counterparts of what took place above.(Adv Haer 1.7)

In other systems, Christ from heaven, Jesus is human.

[Peter Kirby]

Irenaeus, Book I, Chapter 15

Jesus first (the Ogdoad and the Decad, 8 + 10 = 18 = Greek IH cf. Epistle of Barnabas = start of "Jesus" = 888)

But Jesus, he affirms, has the following unspeakable origin. From the mother of all things, that is, the first Tetrad, there came forth the second Tetrad, after the manner of a daughter; and thus an Ogdoad was formed, from which, again, a Decad proceeded: thus was produced a Decad and an Ogdoad. The Decad, then, being joined with the Ogdoad, and multiplying it ten times, gave rise to the number eighty; and, again, multiplying eighty ten times, produced the number eight hundred. Thus, then, the whole number of the letters proceeding from the Ogdoad [multiplied] into the Decad, is eight hundred and eighty-eight. This is the name of Jesus; for this name, if you reckon up the numerical value of the letters, amounts to eight hundred and eighty-eight. Thus, then, you have a clear statement of their opinion as to the origin of the supercelestial Jesus.

Christ the Son second (the Duodecad, 12, number of letters in Son + Christ)

And Christ the Son, he says, is also spoken of, that is, the Duodecad. For the name Son, (υἰός) contains four letters, and Christ (Chreistus) eight, which, being combined, point out the greatness of the Duodecad.

That which was produced second (the Duodecad) came into the world first, and the super celestial Jesus descended on him.

Anyone remember the citations for the reverse?

[neilgodfrey]

Irenaeus, Book I, Chapter 15

Jesus first (the Ogdoad and the Decad)

And thereby Jesus is the "Son of Man" -- the Son of Anthropos (who coupled with Ecclesia).

[Secret Alias]

I think the confusion starts with Irenaeus. At one point I believe Eusebius cites Irenaeus's testimony reversing 'Jesus' and 'Christ' from Epiphanius's version of Adversus Haereses. The inconsistency is difficult to fathom unless it was deliberate - i.e. to obscure the supernatural origins of one of the two entities. But it shows how little direct evidence the Church Fathers had at hand. I would guess 75% of the testimony about the heresies that has any traction (i.e. is repeated) derives its origins from Irenaeus.

[Secret Alias]

Eusebius Church History 4.4,5

And in addition to these men he says that there was also another that lived in that age, Marcus by name, who was remarkably skilled in magic arts. And he describes also their unholy initiations and their abominable mysteries in the following words: For some of them prepare a nuptial couch and perform a mystic rite with certain forms of expression addressed to those who are being initiated, and they say that it is a spiritual marriage which is celebrated by them, after the likeness of the marriages above. But others lead them to water, and while they baptize them they repeat the following words: Into the name of the unknown father of the universe, into truth, the mother of all things, into the one that descended upon Jesus. Others repeat Hebrew names in order the better to confound those who are being initiated.

[Secret Alias]

The followers of Mark in Irenaeus 1.15.3 understood Christ to be from heaven and Jesus the man:

For the Father of all had resolved to put an end to ignorance, and to destroy death. But this abolishing of ignorance was just the knowledge of Him. And therefore that man (Anthropos) was chosen according to His will, having been formed after the image of the [corresponding] power above.

3. As to the AEons, they proceeded from the Tetrad, and in that Tetrad were Anthropos and Ecclesia, Logos and Zoe. The powers, then, he declares, who emanated from these, generated that Jesus who appeared upon the earth. The angel Gabriel took the place of Logos, the Holy Spirit that of Zoe, the Power of the Highest that of Anthropos, while the Virgin pointed out the place of Ecclesia. And thus, by a special dispensation, there was generated by Him, through Mary, that man, whom, as He passed through the womb, the Father of all chose to [obtain] the knowledge of Himself by means of the Word. And on His coming to the water [of baptism], there descended on Him, in the form of a dove, that Being who had formerly ascended on high, and completed the twelfth number, in whom there existed the seed of those who were produced contemporaneously with Himself, and who descended and ascended along with Him. Moreover, he maintains that power which descended was the seed of the Father, which had in itself both the Father and the Son, as well as that power of Sige which is known by means of them, but cannot be expressed in language, and also all the AEons. And this was that Spirit who spoke by the mouth of Jesus, and who confessed that He was the son of Man as well as revealed the Father, and who, having descended into Jesus, was made one with Him. And he says that the Saviour formed by special dispensation did indeed destroy death, but that Christ made known the Father.(1) He maintains, therefore, that Jesus is the name of that man formed by a special dispensation, and that He was formed after the likeness and form of that [heavenly] Anthropos, who was about to descend upon Him. After He had received that AEon, He possessed Anthropos himself, and Loges himself, and Pater, and Arrhetus, and Sige, and Aletheia, and Ecclesia, and Zoe

and again:

1.21.2,3:

For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins, but the redemption brought in by that Christ who descended upon Him, was for perfection; and they allege that the former is animal, but the latter spiritual. And the baptism of John was proclaimed with a view to repentance, but the redemption by Jesus(11) was brought in for the sake of perfection. And to this He refers when He says, "And I have another baptism to be baptized with, and I hasten eagerly towards it."(12) Moreover, they affirm that the Lord added this redemption to the sons of Zebedee, when their mother asked that they might sit, the one on His right hand, and the other on His left, in His kingdom, saying, "Can ye be baptized with the baptism which I shall be baptized with?"(13) Paul, too, they declare, has often set forth, in express terms, the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; and this was the same which is handed down by them in so varied and discordant forms.

3. For some of them prepare a nuptial couch, and perform a sort of mystic rite (pronouncing certain expressions) with those who are being initiated, and affirm that it is a spiritual marriage which is celebrated by them, after the likeness of the conjunctions above. Others, again, lead them to a place where water is, and baptize them, with the utterance of these words, "Into the name of the unknown Father of the universe--into truth, the mother of all things--into Him who descended on Jesus--into union, and redemption, and communion with the powers."

[Secret Alias]

It doesn't seem that the Gospel of the Hebrews mentioned "in the appearance of a dove"

According to the Gospel written in the Hebrew speech, which the Nazaraeans read, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit shall descend upon him. . . Further in the Gospel which we have just mentioned we find the following written:
And it came to pass when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended upon him and rested on him and said to him: My son, in all the prophets was I waiting for thee that thou shouldest come and I might rest in thee. For thou art my rest; thou art my first-begotten Son that reignest for ever. (Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah 4 [on Isaiah 11:2])

But the Gospel of the Ebionites did:

When the people were baptized, Jesus also came and was baptized by John.
And as he came up from the water, the heavens was opened and he saw the
Holy Spirit in the form of a dove that descended and entered into him.
And a voice sounded from Heaven that said:
"You are my beloved Son, in you I am well pleased. "
And again: " I have this day begotten you".
And immediately a great light shone round about the place.
When John saw this, it is said, he said unto him :
"Who are you, Lord?"
And again a voice from Heaven rang out to him:
"This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
And then, it is said, John fell down before him and said:
"I beseech you, Lord, baptize me."
But he prevented him and said:
"Suffer it; for thus it is fitting that everything should be fulfilled."
(Epiphanius, Panarion 30.13.7-8)

[Secret Alias]

Important discovery. Theodotos seems to be the unnamed Valentinian who understood 'Jesus' to descend from heaven:

"Father," he says, "I deposit into thy hands my spirit." Wisdom, he says, put forth a receptacle of flesh for the Logos, the spiritual seed; clad in it the Saviour descended. Wherefore, at the Passion, it is Wisdom which he deposits with the Father, in order that he may receive her from the Father and not be held back here by those who have the power to deprive him. Thus, by the word already spoken of, he deposits the whole spiritual seed, that is, the elect. [Ex Theo 1]

18 When the Saviour descended, he was seen by the angels and so they proclaimed him. But he was also seen by Abraham and the other righteous men who are in Paradise on his right hand. For he says, "He rejoiced to see my day," that is the advent in the flesh. Wherefore, the risen Lord preached the good tidings to the righteous who are in Paradise, and moved them and translated them and they shall all "live under his shadow." For the advent here is a shadow of the Saviour's glory which is with the Father, and a shadow of light is not darkness but illumination. ' '

But then 22 contradicts this hypothesis - almost as if written by the compiler rather than Theodotos:

Now the angels were baptised in the beginning, in the redemption of the Name which descended upon Jesus in the dove and redeemed him. And redemption was necessary even for Jesus, in order that, approaching through Wisdom, he might not be detained by the Notion of the Deficiency in which he was inserted, as Theodotus says.[Ex Theod 22]

But then immediately afterwards Jesus is an angel again:

23 The followers of Valentinus say that Jesus is the Paraclete, because he has come full of the Aeons, having come forth from the whole. For Christ left behind Sophia, who had put him forth, and going into the Pleroma, asked for help for Sophia, who was left outside; and Jesus was put forth by the good will of the Aeons as a Paraclete for the Aeon which had passed [ibid 23]

It seems that 'the psychic Christ' i.e. not Jesus was crucified; 'the Savior' i.e. Jesus came from heaven:

And when he says "The Son of Man must be rejected and insulted and crucified," he seems to be speaking of someone else, that is, of him who has passion. And he says, "On the third of the days I will go before you into Galilee." For he goes before all and indicated that he will raise up the soul which is being invisibly saved and will restore it to the place where he is now leading the way. And he died at the .departure of the Spirit which had descended upon him in the Jordan, not that it became separate but was withdrawn in order that death might also operate on him, since how did the body die when life was present in him? For in that way death would have prevailed over the Saviour himself, which is absurd. But death was out-generalled by guile. For when the body died and death seized it, the Saviour sent forth the ray of power which had come upon him and destroyed death and raised up the mortal body which had put off passion. In this way, therefore, the psychic elements are raised and are saved, but the spiritual natures which believe receive a salvation superior to theirs, having received their souls as "wedding garments."

62 Now the psychic Christ sits on the right hand of the Creator, as David says, " Sit thou on my right hand " and so on. And he sits there until the end "that they may see him whom they pierced." But they pierced the appearance, which is the flesh of the psychic one, "for," it says, "a bone of him shall not be broken," just as in the case of Adam the prophecy used bone as an allegory for the soul. For the actual soul of Christ de posited itself in the Father's hands, while the body was suffer ing. But the spiritual nature referred to as "bone" is not yet deposited but he keeps it.

It would seem to me that Irenaeus is speaking of Theodotos's tradition when he speaks of Valentinians who say a heavenly Jesus descended onto an earthly Christ.

[Giuseppe]

Don't ignore also the pre-christian Hymn of the Naasseni, where Jesus says that he will descend on the earth, and not Christ.

[DCHindley]

Ignoring the sexual innuendo ("tube" being a synonym for the primary male genital) for the moment, I think that this description of Christ entering into Mary as "water through a tube" proves without the slightest doubt that what is being described is the Injection Molding process, which was not invented until after the beginning of the modern Industrial Revolution.

"Water" was substituted for "plastic or raw rubber," as these viscous materials had not yet been discovered in Tertullian's pre-modern day. However, it is plain as day and obvious to everyone who is not ignorant or just plain stoopid that this *must* be a clue that time travel has been invented in a time after the Industrial Revolution (but not necessarily "present" times) *and* that the great secret of Injection Molding was revealed to Tertullian by a time traveler who wanted to help a fellow soul (i.e., he or she loved, loves or will love Tertullian's rough and bellicose and mocking style).

I would, tongue in cheek "of course"™, propose someone who:

A. dismisses the female as inferior ("property") who do not accept their place. That is, who don't know that they are meant by God to be:
1) sex objects/toys,
2) baby-making machines,
3) domestic servants, or
4) modestly-dressed and not-slutty arm-candy,
x) and certainly not important power-brokers like US Senators, or Presidents),

B. the marginalized people in society ("slaves") who don't accept their place i.e., don't or cannot realize that they are, by nature,
1) physical laborers, such as African-Americans and Hispanics, who
2) should not and will not ever be accepted as *legitimate* power brokers such as a US President), or

C. condemn those who rock the boat (advocates for change = "heretics"),
1) who share the same fate as the marginalized people mentioned above,
2) but add the word "uppity" before it.

These are all people and things that Tertullian did dismiss gruffly. Could this "Messiah of Manifest Destiny" be alive already today ... ?

Ahh, it feels good to have such Truth^©, revealed from above, as my companion ...

DCH