NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Bernard Muller
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

Post by Bernard Muller »

Perhaps the Epistle of Barnabas is what I am looking for to set a date whereby we have very strong evidence that some of the gospels exist.

It has been dated into the range 80 to 120 CE.
My dating of the epistle of Barnabas:
7.4 Dating:
As we saw already, the epistle was written after the fall of Jerusalem in 70C.E.
Can we determine a more accurate dating?
Let's consider:
Barnabas4:3-4 "The last offence is at hand, ... For to this end the Master has cut the seasons and the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His inheritance.
[the end" was expected soon, as also in 4:9 "... let us take heed in these last days ..." and 21:3 "The day is at hand ...". This is typical of 1st century Christian writings]
"` ... Ten reigns shall reign upon the earth, and after them shall arise another king, who shall bring low three of the kings under one."
Do these ten and three kings make sense in a 1st century context?

The three kings might be the Flavian dynasty (Vespasian and sons Titus & Domitian). It was ended by the accession to the Roman throne by Nerva (96-98), the same day of Domitian's murder. Nerva may have been thought to be the king who brought low the previous threesome.
Also, in chapter 16, "Barnabas" attacked the inadequacy of any man-made God's temple, past or future: did some Jewish Christians (or/and Jews) think Nerva, not from the same family of the ones who destroyed it (Vespasian & Titus), would allow its rebuilding? It is probable:
Barnabas16:1 "Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not on their God that made them, as being a house of God."
What about the other seven kings?
This series of kings, obviously Roman emperors (as the following four ones, Vespasian to Nerva), had just to make some sense in order to be believed as part of a fulfilled prophecy. Who are the candidates?
1) Julius Caesar (49-44)
2) Augustus (44-14)
3) Tiberius (14-37)
4) Caligula (37-41)
5) Claudius (41-54)
6) Nero (54-68)
7) Galba (Jun68-Jan69)
8) Otho (Jan69-Apr69)
9) Vitellius (Apr69-Dec69)
Out of these nine "kings", two of them never got to be emperor ("princeps"): Julius was dictator for life and Vitellius took only the title of consul for life.
Or one might keep Julius Caesar, the true founder of the imperial system, and remove Otho & Vitellius, the short-lived inept usurpers.

PS: Clement of Alexandria provided two lists of Roman emperors in 'Stromata', I, XXI. The first one excludes Julius, Otho and Vitellius; the second includes the three of them:
"And nothing, in my opinion, after these details, need stand in the way of stating the periods of the Roman emperors, in order to the demonstration of the Saviour's birth. Augustus, forty-three years; ... Galba, one year; Vespasian, ten years; ...
Some set down the dates of the Roman emperors thus: Caius Julius Caesar, three years, four months, five days; after him Augustus ... Galba, seven months and six days; Otho, five months, one day; Vitellius, seven months, one day; Vespasian ..."
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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3 Furthermore he says again, "Lo, they who destroyed this temple shall themselves build it."
4 That is happening now. For owing to the war it was destroyed by the enemy; at present even the servants of the enemy will build it up again. (Lake)
No, it is wishful thinking for an action in the future.
And "that is happening now" might be a misleading translation. There are others such as "So it cometh to pass" (Lightfoot) and "And so doth it happen" (Hoole).
Maybe Ben can clarify that, as for also the Greek tense for the two verbs.

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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:06 pm
3 Furthermore he says again, "Lo, they who destroyed this temple shall themselves build it."
4 That is happening now. For owing to the war it was destroyed by the enemy; at present even the servants of the enemy will build it up again. (Lake)
No, it is wishful thinking for an action in the future.
And "that is happening now" might be a misleading translation. There are others such as "So it cometh to pass" (Lightfoot) and "And so doth it happen" (Hoole).
Maybe Ben can clarify that, as for also the Greek tense for the two verbs.
This is Ehrman's text from the Loeb edition:

Barnabas 16.3-4: 3 Moreover he says again, "See, those who have destroyed [καθελόντες, aorist tense] this temple will themselves build [οἰκοδομήσουσιν, future tense] it." 4 This is happening [γίνεται, present tense]. For because of their war it was destroyed [καθῃρέθη, aorist tense] by their enemies. And now the servants of the enemies will themselves rebuild [ἀνοικοδομήσουσιν, future tense] it.

Well, "it is happening" is definitely in present tense. But what is "it" that is happening? Surely not the destruction, which is twice represented by the aorist tense. And surely not the (re)building, which is twice represented by the future tense. I think "it" (which is only implied in the Greek) is the prophecy itself, namely that those who destroyed the temple will themselves rebuild it. I think it means that the prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled; it has two parts (destruction and rebuilding), and the writer stands between the two events.

The prophecy itself comes from the Septuagint, not from the text underlying the Masoretic:

Isaiah 49.17 LXX: 17 Καὶ ταχὺ οἰκοδομηθήσῃ ὑφ᾽ ὧν καθῃρέθης καὶ οἱ ἐρημώσαντές σε ἐκ σοῦ ἐξελεύσονται. / And you will soon be built by those by whom you were destroyed, and those who made you desolate shall go forth from you.

Isaiah 49.17 Masoretic: 17 Your builders hurry; your destroyers and devastators will depart from you.

ETA: As I pointed out in another thread:
It is not altogether clear from context that the temple to be built up is meant as literal, but the one which was torn down pretty much has to be the literal temple in Jerusalem.
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

Post by Bernard Muller »

My dating of 1 Clement:
Most scholars contend that '1Clement' was written in 96C.E., right after Domitian's persecution. The evidence they cite is solely from a sentence in ch.1:
"Owing, dear brethren [the Corinthians], to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves [the Christians of Rome], we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us"
However any persecution under Domitian (93-96C.E.) could hardly be referred as "sudden and successive calamitous events". Furthermore, Domitian's persecutions (supported from scanty evidence) were not momentous in Rome itself (and not even necessarily against Christians!).
But here, the calamities appear to be local: "...events which have happened to ourselves".
But if Domitian's persecution is not the events alluded to, do we have a record of successive calamities afflicting the Romans prior to 96C.E?
The answer is YES.
Suetonius: De Vita Caesarum--Divus Titus, c. 110 C.E.:
"There were some dreadful disasters during his reign [Titus], such as the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in Campania [August 79C.E.], a fire at Rome which continued three days and as many nights [80], and a plague the like of which had hardly ever been known before [80]. In these many great calamities ..."
Note: the plague affected Rome and most of Italy, but not the rest of the empire.

Furthermore, there are a few passages in '1Clement' which point to a date of composition earlier than 96C.E. Let's review them:
a) 1Clement, ch.5 "Let us take the noble examples [Peter and Paul] furnished in our own generation."
Peter and Paul probably died in the 60's and would still be considered of the same generation as the recipients of the letters, some fifteen years later.

b) According to ch.42&44, some presbyters, who were allegedly appointed by the first apostles themselves, had just been deposed:
1Clement, ch.44 "Those who were thus appointed by them [the apostles], or afterwards by other men of good repute, ... and who for a long time have obtained a good report from all, these, we think, have been unjustly deposed from the ministry."

c) 1Clement, ch.23 "These things we have heard [the second coming & related events] even in the times of our fathers [when those were still alive]; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us."
Paul made converts and created the church of Corinth from late 50 to mid 52, during the second journey. If the "we" were around fifteen years old then, with their fathers being about twenty five years older, then thirty years later, the "we" would be in their forties, and their fathers (if still alive!) reaching their seventies. However the life expectancy in these days was no more than fifty years. So at the time the letter was written, the "we" would truly "have grown old", with the times of their fathers way behind.

d) 1Clement, ch.46 "Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you."
The author thought recipients of the letter were among the same ones addressed by Paul around 55C.E.

e) 1Clement, ch.6 "To these men [Paul & Peter] ... there was gathered a great multitude of the elect, who ... became a most excellent example among us."
Initial elects would still be alive among the Christians then.

f) 1Clement, ch. 23 ""compare yourselves to a tree: take the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next it puts forth leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened fruit. You perceive how in a little time the fruit of a tree comes to maturity. Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, "Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;""
This could not have been written after the recipients of the letter (described as being from the generation of Paul & Peter) had died. It would have been stupid to make that claim in the 2nd century, proving the author was wrong, with the second coming shown to be a false hope.

Note: it has been suggested that, from that verse (47:6), the word "ancient" would indicate the epistle was written in the 2nd century: "It is shameful, dearly beloved, yes, utterly shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that it should be reported that the very steadfast and ancient Church of the Corinthians, for the sake of one or two persons, makes sedition against its presbyters." But "ancient" is vague & not descriptive about a number of years, and, in no way, would imply the Church of Corinth was created many decades before the letter was written. "Clement" probably suggested by "steadfast and ancient" the church of Corinth was too mature to get into this (infantile) bickering.
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:33 pm
Perhaps the Epistle of Barnabas is what I am looking for to set a date whereby we have very strong evidence that some of the gospels exist.

It has been dated into the range 80 to 120 CE.
My dating of the epistle of Barnabas:
7.4 Dating:
As we saw already, the epistle was written after the fall of Jerusalem in 70C.E.
Can we determine a more accurate dating?
Let's consider:
Barnabas4:3-4 "The last offence is at hand, ... For to this end the Master has cut the seasons and the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His inheritance.
[the end" was expected soon, as also in 4:9 "... let us take heed in these last days ..." and 21:3 "The day is at hand ...". This is typical of 1st century Christian writings]
"` ... Ten reigns shall reign upon the earth, and after them shall arise another king, who shall bring low three of the kings under one."
Do these ten and three kings make sense in a 1st century context?

The three kings might be the Flavian dynasty (Vespasian and sons Titus & Domitian). It was ended by the accession to the Roman throne by Nerva (96-98), the same day of Domitian's murder. Nerva may have been thought to be the king who brought low the previous threesome.
Also, in chapter 16, "Barnabas" attacked the inadequacy of any man-made God's temple, past or future: did some Jewish Christians (or/and Jews) think Nerva, not from the same family of the ones who destroyed it (Vespasian & Titus), would allow its rebuilding? It is probable:
Barnabas16:1 "Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not on their God that made them, as being a house of God."
What about the other seven kings?
This series of kings, obviously Roman emperors (as the following four ones, Vespasian to Nerva), had just to make some sense in order to be believed as part of a fulfilled prophecy. Who are the candidates?
1) Julius Caesar (49-44)
2) Augustus (44-14)
3) Tiberius (14-37)
4) Caligula (37-41)
5) Claudius (41-54)
6) Nero (54-68)
7) Galba (Jun68-Jan69)
8) Otho (Jan69-Apr69)
9) Vitellius (Apr69-Dec69)
Out of these nine "kings", two of them never got to be emperor ("princeps"): Julius was dictator for life and Vitellius took only the title of consul for life.
Or one might keep Julius Caesar, the true founder of the imperial system, and remove Otho & Vitellius, the short-lived inept usurpers.

PS: Clement of Alexandria provided two lists of Roman emperors in 'Stromata', I, XXI. The first one excludes Julius, Otho and Vitellius; the second includes the three of them:
"And nothing, in my opinion, after these details, need stand in the way of stating the periods of the Roman emperors, in order to the demonstration of the Saviour's birth. Augustus, forty-three years; ... Galba, one year; Vespasian, ten years; ...
Some set down the dates of the Roman emperors thus: Caius Julius Caesar, three years, four months, five days; after him Augustus ... Galba, seven months and six days; Otho, five months, one day; Vitellius, seven months, one day; Vespasian ..."
Lightfoot comes up with a rather different date for the epistle, but using much of the same interpretation you apply. The Apostolic Fathers, part 1, volume 2, appendix B, pages 509-510:

The solution, which I venture to offer, has not, so far as I am aware, been given before. We enumerate the ten Caesars in their natural sequence with Weizsacker, and we arrive at Vespasian as the tenth. We regard the three Flavii as the three kings destined to be humiliated, with Hilgenfeld. We do not however with him contemplate them as three separate emperors, but we explain the language as referring to the reigning sovereign, Vespasian, associating his two sons Titus and Domitian with himself in the exercise of the supreme power. At no other point in the history of the imperial household do we find so close a connexion of three in one, until a date too late to enter into consideration. And lastly; we interpret the little horn as symbolising the Antichrist with Volkmar, and we explain it by the expectation of Nero's reappearance which we know to have been rife during the reign of Vespasian. No other epoch in the history of the Caesars presents this coincidence of the three elements in the image—the ten kings, the three kings, and the Antichrist—so appropriately. For these reasons we are led to place the so-called Barnabas during the reign of Vespasian (A.D. 70—79).

The enumeration of the ten kings speaks for itself; but the significance of the three kings requires some illustration. When Vespasian assumed the supreme dignity, the power of the empire was sustained by Titus among the legions, while it was represented by Domitian in the capital (Tac. Hist. iii. 84, iv. 2, 3). The three were thus associated together in the public mind, as no three persons had been associated before in the history of the Empire. Immediately on the accession of their father the two young men were created Caesars by the Senate and invested with the title of 'Principes Juventutis.' The first act of Vespasian was to associate Titus with himself as colleague in the consulship, while Domitian was made praetor with consular power. Several types of coin, struck during this reign, exhibit the effigy of the reigning emperor on the obverse with figures of Titus and Domitian on the reverse in various attitudes and with various legends. An extant inscription, on a marble (Eckhel Doctr. Num. vi. p. 320 sq), which has apparently served as a base for three busts, commemorates the emperor and his two sons in parallel columns, Vespasian's name and titles occupying the central column. 'Along this path (to glory)', says the elder Pliny (N. H. ii. 5) 'now advances with godlike step, accompanied by his sons, Vespasianus Augustus the greatest ruler of any age.' The association of Titus with his father's honours was close and continuous. He was seven times colleague to the emperor in the consulate during the ten years of Vespasian's reign. He was associated in the Pontificate, the Censorship, and the Tribunician Power, which represented respectively the religious, the moral, and the political authority of the sovereign. From the moment of his return to Rome after his Eastern victories 'he never ceased,' we are told, 'to act the part of colleague and even guardian of the empire1.' The title Imperator itself was conferred upon him, so that the language of the elder Pliny is perfectly correct, when he speaks of 'imperatores Caesares Vespasiani, pater filiusque' during the lifetime of the father. On the other hand the relations of Vespasian towards his younger son were never cordial. But the good nature and generosity of Titus interposed to prevent any open breach between the two. He represented to his father that the safety of the empire was dependent on the harmony of the imperial household; and the baseness of Domitian was in consequence overlooked. Coins were struck, which had on the obverse the two sons of Vespasian, with the legend TVTELA AVGVSTI. At the triumph after the close of the Judaic war, 'Vespasian,' says one who witnessed it, 'preceded in a chariot, and Titus followed, while Domitian rode on horseback by the side, himself splendidly habited and mounted on a horse which was a sight to see.'

Here then were the very three kings of whom the prophecy spoke. It is true that the obvious interpretation of the words pointed to three several kings belonging to the ten who are mentioned just before, whereas the so-called Barnabas found the three combined in one of the ten together with his sons and colleagues in the kingship. But this manipulation was forced upon him by the stubbornness of contemporary facts; and he calls attention to it by repeating the expression 'three in one,' which has no place in the original.

Lightfoot is correct to bear in mind that this prophecy originates in Daniel:

Daniel 7.7-8: 7 After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

Barnabas had to make do with what he had, and the three horns may well have reminded him of Vespasian and his two sons, just as you and Lightfoot both surmise. The three horns, which in Daniel's wording should apply to three of the same emperors, instead apply to Vespasian himself and his two sons; as Lightfoot says, "this manipulation was forced upon him by the stubbornness of contemporary facts; and he calls attention to it by repeating the expression 'three in one,' which has no place in the original." But I think I like your perspective, Bernard, better insofar as the actual date is concerned: it makes sense that the three horns have already fallen by the time Barnabas is writing. It would be the coincidence of Daniel's 10 horns and 3 horns with Vespasian being the 10th emperor and having two practically coregent sons that would have inspired the whole idea of using the Danielic prophecy for guidance. And Barnabas emphasizes that the end is near, which may imply that the 3 kings have already run their course, with their supplanter being the last king on the prophetic timetable.

All of this assumes that the 10 kings and 3 kings mean something in Barnabas' immediate context, of course. It stands to reason, but it has been doubted.
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:44 pm Note: it has been suggested that, from that verse (47:6), the word "ancient" would indicate the epistle was written in the 2nd century: "It is shameful, dearly beloved, yes, utterly shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that it should be reported that the very steadfast and ancient Church of the Corinthians, for the sake of one or two persons, makes sedition against its presbyters." But "ancient" is vague & not descriptive about a number of years, and, in no way, would imply the Church of Corinth was created many decades before the letter was written. "Clement" probably suggested by "steadfast and ancient" the church of Corinth was too mature to get into this (infantile) bickering.
Also bear in mind that in 47.2, just 4 verses earlier, the author had written, "What did [Paul] first write unto you in the beginning [ἐν ἀρχῇ] of his gospel?" The word ἀρχαῖος ("ancient") in verse 6 derives etymologically from the word ἀρχή ("beginning") in verse 2, and means "from the beginning," essentially. So perhaps Clement simply meant that the Corinthians were there "from the beginning" of the Pauline gospel preached in Europe.
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Gday all,
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:49 pm And, in the case of at least some of the entries on the table (Justin Martyr, for example), there is simply no way to be exhaustive in tabular format. There would be too many connections to NT writings.
Yah.
We need something like a grand online hyper-linked text-base of all these books. Quotes and allusions hyper-linked down to their source, and also hippo-linked up to all their usages.

In VR 3D view, all the books show as a vast 3D tree. The horizontal plane is the map of the east Mediterranean, and the vertical axis represents time, with early books at the bottom, and later books appearing in their place and higher at their time. Links show as thin glowing lines (thinner for allusions, brighter for a named quote) between the texts - which look like various sized leather-bound books (gilt-edged for NT texts.)

The NT text with apparatus and variations is already online.
I wonder how long before we see such a VR3D Hyper-Library Editio Critica Maior of all Christian and Jewish writings ?
Hopefully it won't be long before we can let loose an AI on all these documents and let it build the library :)

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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

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Kapyong wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:54 pm Gday all,
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:49 pm And, in the case of at least some of the entries on the table (Justin Martyr, for example), there is simply no way to be exhaustive in tabular format. There would be too many connections to NT writings.
Yah.
We need something like a grand online hyper-linked text-base of all these books. Quotes and allusions hyper-linked down to their source, and also hippo-linked up to all their usages.
I have dreamed of such a resource for some time now. Pretty sure Peter has too (and his capabilities for producing such a thing far exceed my own).
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Re: NT books apparently known by Patristic Fathers

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
The solution, which I venture to offer, has not, so far as I am aware, been given before. We enumerate the ten Caesars in their natural sequence with Weizsacker, and we arrive at Vespasian as the tenth. We regard the three Flavii as the three kings destined to be humiliated, with Hilgenfeld. We do not however with him contemplate them as three separate emperors, but we explain the language as referring to the reigning sovereign, Vespasian, associating his two sons Titus and Domitian with himself in the exercise of the supreme power. At no other point in the history of the imperial household do we find so close a connexion of three in one, until a date too late to enter into consideration. And lastly; we interpret the little horn as symbolising the Antichrist with Volkmar, and we explain it by the expectation of Nero's reappearance which we know to have been rife during the reign of Vespasian. No other epoch in the history of the Caesars presents this coincidence of the three elements in the image—the ten kings, the three kings, and the Antichrist—so appropriately. For these reasons we are led to place the so-called Barnabas during the reign of Vespasian (A.D. 70—79).
That's seems rather far-fetched that Titus & Domitian would be considered also "kings" when their father was ruling.
The enumeration of the ten kings speaks for itself; but the significance of the three kings requires some illustration. When Vespasian assumed the supreme dignity, the power of the empire was sustained by Titus among the legions, while it was represented by Domitian in the capital (Tac. Hist. iii. 84, iv. 2, 3). The three were thus associated together in the public mind, as no three persons had been associated before in the history of the Empire. Immediately on the accession of their father the two young men were created Caesars by the Senate and invested with the title of 'Principes Juventutis.' The first act of Vespasian was to associate Titus with himself as colleague in the consulship, while Domitian was made praetor with consular power. Several types of coin, struck during this reign, exhibit the effigy of the reigning emperor on the obverse with figures of Titus and Domitian on the reverse in various attitudes and with various legends. An extant inscription, on a marble (Eckhel Doctr. Num. vi. p. 320 sq), which has apparently served as a base for three busts, commemorates the emperor and his two sons in parallel columns, Vespasian's name and titles occupying the central column. 'Along this path (to glory)', says the elder Pliny (N. H. ii. 5) 'now advances with godlike step, accompanied by his sons, Vespasianus Augustus the greatest ruler of any age.' The association of Titus with his father's honours was close and continuous. He was seven times colleague to the emperor in the consulate during the ten years of Vespasian's reign. He was associated in the Pontificate, the Censorship, and the Tribunician Power, which represented respectively the religious, the moral, and the political authority of the sovereign. From the moment of his return to Rome after his Eastern victories 'he never ceased,' we are told, 'to act the part of colleague and even guardian of the empire1.' The title Imperator itself was conferred upon him, so that the language of the elder Pliny is perfectly correct, when he speaks of 'imperatores Caesares Vespasiani, pater filiusque' during the lifetime of the father. On the other hand the relations of Vespasian towards his younger son were never cordial. But the good nature and generosity of Titus interposed to prevent any open breach between the two. He represented to his father that the safety of the empire was dependent on the harmony of the imperial household; and the baseness of Domitian was in consequence overlooked. Coins were struck, which had on the obverse the two sons of Vespasian, with the legend TVTELA AVGVSTI. At the triumph after the close of the Judaic war, 'Vespasian,' says one who witnessed it, 'preceded in a chariot, and Titus followed, while Domitian rode on horseback by the side, himself splendidly habited and mounted on a horse which was a sight to see.'
That's mostly about Titus, and Domitian is not yet much in the forefront.

Then who would be the "another king" who will "terminate" three kings: "Ten reigns shall reign
upon the earth, and after them shall arise another king, who shall bring low three of the kings under one."

Nerva, who ended the Flavian dynasty and was rumored to be responsible for Domitian's assassination, is most likely that another king.
But I think I like your perspective, Bernard, better insofar as the actual date is concerned: it makes sense that the three horns have already fallen by the time Barnabas is writing. It would be the coincidence of Daniel's 10 horns and 3 horns with Vespasian being the 10th emperor and having two practically coregent sons that would have inspired the whole idea of using the Danielic prophecy for guidance. And Barnabas emphasizes that the end is near, which may imply that the 3 kings have already run their course, with their supplanter being the last king on the prophetic timetable.
Great :) , Thanks Ben.

Cordially, Bernard
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