Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:47 pm
3. The teaching about the Second Coming in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Revelation of John---Not the Pauline Epistles---Justin did not teach that people would meet Jesus in the air. Justin claimed people would with Jesus in Jerusalem for a thousand years on earth.
In 2 Peter 3:8 (and only here in the canonical texts) a day is equal to one thousand years:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
Well, the idea is not wholly unanticipated in the canon; there is always the Prayer of Moses; the paracanonical Jubilees also expresses the thought:

Psalm 90.4 (89.4 LXX): For a thousand years in Your sight are like the day, yesterday, when it passes by, or as a watch in the night. / ὅτι χίλια ἔτη ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖς σου ὡς ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ ἐχθές ἥτις διῆλθεν καὶ φυλακὴ ἐν νυκτί.

Jubilees 4.29-30: 29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. 30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

ETA: The idea got around:

Barnabas 15.1-5: 1 And, moreover, concerning the sabbath it is written in the ten commandments, in which he spake on Mount Sinai unto Moses face to face: Sanctify ye the sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and a pure heart. 2 And in another place he saith, If my sons shall keep my sabbath, then will I place my mercy upon them. 3 He speaketh, too, of the sabbath in the beginning of the creation: And God made in six days the works of his hands, and finished them on the seventh day, and rested in it and sanctified it. 4 Consider, my children, what signify the words, He finished them in six days. They mean this: that in six thousand years the Lord will make an end of all things, for a day is with him as a thousand years. And he himself beareth witness unto me, saying: Behold this day a day shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, shall all things be brought to an end. 5 And the words, He rested on the seventh day, signify this: After that his Son hath come, and hath caused to cease the time of the wicked one, and hath judged the ungodly, and changed the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he rest well on the seventh day.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.28.3: For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: "Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works." This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jax
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:45 pm
Jax wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:11 pm
You would think then that whoever, as you speculate, composed the Pauline letters post Justin would have made more mention of Jesus. And yet it is exactly the opposite of what we see.

Why is that do you think?
The Pauline letters were probably from a Christ-orientated Gnostic-Gentile community and, if so, Jesus would have only been added to the Pauline texts when they were merged with the gospel-texts from a Jeshua-following Jewish Community.
Interesting idea.

If I understand you, Paul was only writing about a "Christ" not a "Jesus Christ" right?

I have always thought that the name "Jesus Christ"="WVHV saves" "the Messiah'' was a little pat. are there any critical arguments for this position that you present?

Who was this "Jeshua-following Jewish Community" BTW? What was their origin?
hakeem
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:47 pm
3. The teaching about the Second Coming in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Revelation of John---Not the Pauline Epistles---Justin did not teach that people would meet Jesus in the air. Justin claimed people would with Jesus in Jerusalem for a thousand years on earth.
In 2 Peter 3:8 (and only here in the canonical texts) a day is equal to one thousand years:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
Let's compare with Justin's assertion:
Trypho LXXXI "We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem;"
So Justin might have known about some epistles.

Furthermore, the expression "day of the Lord" never appears in the gospels and Revelation, but it does in some of Paul's epistles (1Co 5:5, 2Co 1:14, 1Th 5:2) and also 2Pet 3:10.

Cordially, Bernard
You are really wasting your time. The writings attributed to Justin specifically identify their sources---it is the Revelation of John and the books of the Prophets .

Dialogue With TryphoLXXX
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
Dialogue With Trypho LXXXI
And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem.
2 Peter 3 and all Epistles do not even claim Christians would live with their Jesus for a thousand years in Jerusalem.
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by MrMacSon »

Jax wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:21 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:45 pm The Pauline letters were probably from a Christ-orientated Gnostic-Gentile community and, if so, Jesus would have only been added to the Pauline texts when they were merged with the gospel-texts from a Jeshua-following Jewish Community.
Interesting idea. If I understand you, Paul was only writing about a "Christ" not a "Jesus Christ", right?

I have always thought that the name "Jesus Christ"="WVHV saves" "the Messiah'' was a little pat.

Are there any critical arguments for this position that you present?

The Dutch Radicals of the 19th century, particularly AD Loman.

I think this is a summary of Loman's position by Hermann Detering [rather than a direct quote of a translation of Loman's writings] -

.
"Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic messianic community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

"Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community had Paul as its representative and the Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church1. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."
.

1 I would contend the Roman Catholic church did not come until after the formation of an Eastern Orthodox Church under Constantine (in Constantinople formerly Byzantium; and now Istanbul)

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Secret Alias
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

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I know this is going to be above the heads of 90% of the participants in this discussion but the 'day of YHWH' is a Samaritan concept derived from their edition of Deuteronomy:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HMlJA ... an&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=nh6vi ... an&f=false
There was the expectation of the Great Day of the Lord, a day of vengeance and recompense. Starting with the belief that this was to bring national vindication, they probably advanced, as did the Jews, to the thought of individual reward for the righteous. https://books.google.com/books?id=Whke9 ... EQ6AEIKDAA
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hakeem
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by hakeem »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:40 pm
hakeem wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:40 am There are no parallels in the writings attributed to Justin and the so-called Pauline Epistles.

Ben identifies some in the OP. He shows indications that Justin and Romans share common catenae from texts of the LXX
It is simply a most blatant logical fallacy to suggest that Justin may have known Paul because of shared texts in the LXX.

Shared texts confirm that both are probably using the same or similar sources--namely the LXX.
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by Secret Alias »

Why is that such a bad argument? It is a strange and otherwise unattested text of the Jewish writings. Sounds like an interesting line of reasoning to me. It is not the LXX.
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by Bernard Muller »

In 2Peter and Barnabas' epistles (and Jewish writings), the "Lord" in the "day of the Lord" is God, not Jesus.
But in Justin and Paul's epistles, "Lord" in the "day of the Lord" is Jesus, not God.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:56 pm
... in Justin and Paul's epistles, "Lord" in the "day of the Lord" is Jesus, not God.

Cordially, Bernard

Yet, Justin merely says, in Dial. cum Trypho LXXXI, after quoting Isaiah -

Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgement of all men would likewise take place.

and
Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:14 pm
According to the Alexandrian version, "day of the Lord" (without Jesus or Jesus Christ) is in Acts 2:20, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

Post by robert j »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:37 pm I know this is going to be above the heads of 90% of the participants in this discussion but the 'day of YHWH' is a Samaritan concept derived from their edition of Deuteronomy:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HMlJA ... an&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=nh6vi ... an&f=false
There was the expectation of the Great Day of the Lord, a day of vengeance and recompense. Starting with the belief that this was to bring national vindication, they probably advanced, as did the Jews, to the thought of individual reward for the righteous. https://books.google.com/books?id=Whke9 ... EQ6AEIKDAA
The Christian twist came from, I think, Paul. He used quite a bit of Joel from the LXX, supplemented by a few other books, to formulate his version of the wrath to come on the day of the Lord ---

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3042
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