Justin Martyr and the apostle Paul.

[hakeem]

You have assumed parallels are found from Pauline teachings. You have assumed the writings under the name of Paul represent Paul's teachings.

Don't forget that you cannot assume.

The parallels are there. We can identify them. They are not assumed. They are concrete data. The question to be asked is how to explain them. You are right that we cannot begin with an assumption that certain writings were truly Paul's teachings. I am not assuming that. There is a difference between parallels and explanations of those parallels.

There are no parallels in the writings attributed to Justin and the so-called Pauline Epistles. You cannot and have not identified them. You have assumed and imagined them.

The supposed Justin identified his sources as the books of the Prophets, the Memoirs of the Apostles called Gospels and the Revelation by John.

1. The life story of the supposed Jesus in writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Gospels--Not the Pauline Epistles--There is virtually nothing about the life of Jesus in the Pauline Corpus.


In effect, the Pauline Epistles are completely useless for Justin.

Dialogue With Trypho

And I continued: "Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born[of a virgin], save this our Christ."

2. The post-resurrection story of Jesus in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Gospels---Not the Pauline Epistles--Justin did not teach that over 500 persons were seen by Jesus after he resurrected. Justin knew a story where it was claimed the disciples stole the body of Jesus to make it appear that Jesus was raised from the dead.

The Pauline Epistles are useless for Justin.

Justin's Dialogue With Trypho CVII

...as I said before you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilaean deceiver, whom we crucified, but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb...

3. The teaching about the Second Coming in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Revelation of John---Not the Pauline Epistles---Justin did not teach that people would meet Jesus in the air. Justin claimed people would be with Jesus in Jerusalem for a thousand years on earth.

Again, the Pauline Epistles are useless for the teachings of Justin.

Dialogue With Trypho LXXXI

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem..

...But manuscripts of the Memoirs of the Apostles have not been found. The references to them by Justin raise more questions than answers. I am simply trying to remind us that we cannot make assumptions about what we don't have, that's all. No need to be so defensive or agro.

Again, we have writings attributed to Justin and we can compare what is written in them about Jesus and what is found in the books of the Prophets the Gospels, Revelation and the Pauline Epistles.

The writings attributed to Justin in collaboration with other writings answer questions.

The writings attributed to Justin show that supposed Christian writers in the 2nd century knew nothing of Paul, all the Epistles and Acts of the Apostles.

[Jax]

1. The life story of the supposed Jesus in writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Gospels--Not the Pauline Epistles--There is virtually nothing about the life of Jesus in the Pauline Corpus.


In effect, the Pauline Epistles are completely useless for Justin.

Dialogue With Trypho

And I continued: "Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born[of a virgin], save this our Christ."

2. The post-resurrection story of Jesus in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Gospels---Not the Pauline Epistles--Justin did not teach that over 500 persons were seen by Jesus after he resurrected. Justin knew a story where it was claimed the disciples stole the body of Jesus to make it appear that Jesus was raised from the dead.

The Pauline Epistles are useless for Justin.


The writings attributed to Justin show that supposed Christian writers in the 2nd century knew nothing of Paul, all the Epistles and Acts of the Apostles.

You would think then that whoever, as you speculate, composed the Pauline letters post Justin would have made more mention of Jesus. And yet it is exactly the opposite of what we see.

Why is that do you think?

[MrMacSon]

There are no parallels in the writings attributed to Justin and the so-called Pauline Epistles.

Ben identifies some in the OP. He shows indications that Justin and Romans share common catenae from texts of the LXX

[MrMacSon]

You would think then that whoever, as you speculate, composed the Pauline letters post Justin would have made more mention of Jesus. And yet it is exactly the opposite of what we see.

Why is that do you think?

The Pauline letters were probably from a Christ-orientated Gnostic-Gentile community and, if so, Jesus would have only been added to the Pauline texts when they were merged with the gospel-texts from a Jeshua-following Jewish Community.

[Bernard Muller]

3. The teaching about the Second Coming in the writings attributed to Justin is paralleled in the Revelation of John---Not the Pauline Epistles---Justin did not teach that people would meet Jesus in the air. Justin claimed people would with Jesus in Jerusalem for a thousand years on earth.

In 2 Peter 3:8 (and only here in the canonical texts) a day is equal to one thousand years:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
Let's compare with Justin's assertion:
Trypho LXXXI "We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem;"
So Justin might have known about some epistles.

Furthermore, the expression "day of the Lord" never appears in the gospels and Revelation, but it does in some of Paul's epistles (1Co 5:5, 2Co 1:14, 1Th 5:2) and also 2Pet 3:10.

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

.
Use of Day of the Lord in the OT -

In the Hebrew bible, the meaning of the phrases refers to temporal events such as the invasion of a foreign army, the capture of a city and the suffering that befalls the inhabitants. This appears much in the second chapter of Isaiah.

In the New Testament, the "day of the Lord" may also refer to the writer's own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth's history including the final judgment[1] and the World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

Old Testament
It is used first by Isaiah and subsequently incorporated into prophetic and apocalyptic literature texts of the Bible. It relies on military images to describe the Lord as a "divine warrior" who will conquer his enemies. In certain prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the enemies of the Lord are Israel's enemies, and in these visions the day of the Lord brings victory for the people of ancient Israel. Other prophets use the imagery as a warning to Israel or its leaders and for them, the day of the Lord will mean destruction for the biblical nations of Israel and/or Judah. This concept develops throughout Jewish and Christian Scripture into a day of divine, apocalyptic judgment at the end of the world.[2]

In the biblical canon, the earliest, direct use of the phrase is in Isaiah 2: "For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low" (Isaiah 2:12). Another early use of the phrase is in Amos 5:18-20.[3] Wright suggests that the phrase was already a standard one, and Amos' hearers would take it to mean "the day when Yahweh would intervene to put Israel at the head of the nations, irrespective of Israel's faithfulness to Him."[3] Yet Amos declares "Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light" (Amos 5:18, NIV). Because Israel had sinned, God would come in judgement on them. Thus, the day of the Lord is about God chastening his people, whether it be through the Babylonian invasion of Jerusalem or a locust plague described in Joel 2:1-11.[3] Yet Joel 2:32 holds a promise that on the Day of the Lord, "everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

Reference to a specific day as being "The Day of the Lord" is found in the Book of Daniel 12:12, "Blessed is he who waits and comes unto 1,335 days."

--------------------------

New Testament

This promise is also picked up in the New Testament, when Joel 2:28-32 is quoted in Acts 2:17-21.

then "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come" (Joel 2:31, cited in Acts 2:20).

The phrase is also used in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 to refer either to the rapture or to the return of Jesus.[4]

The phrase alludes to a judgement for eternal rewards in 2 Corinthians 1:14 where it says "we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus"

The Book of Revelation describes the day of the Lord as an apocalyptic time of God's almighty wrath, which comes upon those who are deemed wicked. The text pictures every man hiding in the rocks of the mountains during a major earthquake to attempt to hide from God's wrath, while celestial phenomena turn the moon blood red and the sun dark.[Revelation 6:12-17] These celestial phenomena are also mentioned in Joel 2:31, which foretells the same precise order of events mentioned in Revelation: The moon turns blood red and the sun turns dark before the great day of the Lord. Matthew 24:29-31 mentions the same event, yet it places the celestial phenomenon as occurring after the "tribulation of those days". According to these passages, it then seems that the day of the Lord is an event closely tied with the coming of the Messiah to judge the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Lord

[MrMacSon]

Day of the Lord, God, Christ, the
Expression, often in the context of future events, which refers to the time when God will intervene decisively for judgment and/or salvation. Variously formulated as the "day of the Lord" ( Amos 5:18 ), the "day of our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Col 1:8 ; cf. 2 Col 1:14 ), the "day of God" ( 2 Peter 3:12 ; Rev 16:14 ), or "the last day(s)", the expression highlights the unmistakable appearance of God. God will make visible his rule of righteousness by calling for an accounting by the nations as well as individuals, dispensing punishment for some and ushering in salvation for others.

In the Old Testament the expression "day of the Lord" occurs eighteen times in prophetic literature, most often in the books of Joel and Zephaniah. It is not found in Daniel. A similar expression that stands close to it is "on that day, " which occurs 208 times in the Old Testament; half the occurrences are in the prophets. In the New Testament, equivalent expressions, such as "day of Jesus Christ, " are found in 1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6, 10; and 2 Peter 3:10, 12. "Day of the Lord" appears in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/diction ... hrist.html

etcetera / ongoing ...
.

it seems to be only the Pauline texts that say 'day of [our Lord] Jesus Christ', [eta] but not all Pauline's use Jesus Christ (eg. 2 Thess 2:2)

[MrMacSon]

Trypho LXXXI "We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject¹. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem;"

So Justin might have known about some epistles.

¹ Let's look at 'this subject' in Trypho LXXXI ie. the preceding passage. The Catholic Encyclopedia gives it as a full quote of Isaiah -

.
For Isaiah spoke thus concerning this space of a thousand years:

• For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old [Literally, “the son of an hundred years.”]; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, says the Lord.

Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.' [ = Luke 20:35f].

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm

as does https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01. ... lxxxi.html


It would seem Justin got his motivation for mentioning 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years' from Isaiah.

.

[hakeem]

You would think then that whoever, as you speculate, composed the Pauline letters post Justin would have made more mention of Jesus. And yet it is exactly the opposite of what we see.

Why is that do you think?

You would have thought that whoever wrote the James Epistle would have made more mention of the life of his supposed brother--the Lord Jesus.
You would have thought that whoever wrote the Epistles of Peter would have made more mention of the life of his Jesus--the Son of God.
You would have thought that whoever wrote the Epistles of John would have made more mention of the life of his Jesus--the Logos.
You would have thought that whoever wrote the Epistle of Jude would have made more mention of the life of his Jesus--the Son of God.

However as soon as you examine all the Epistles it is quickly realized Epistles [in and out the Canon] have virtually nothing about the life of Jesus.

I did not except the character called Paul to mention anything about the life of Jesus when the fiction is admitted that he was seen by Jesus after he was dead for at least three days and that he also received information from a non-historical resurrected character/

The Pauline writings are obvious fiction just like Acts of the Apostles.

Even if Jesus did live, I did not except that the supposed Pauline writer could have written anything about his life since it is admitted he got his Gospel from NO MAN.

The Pauline writer openly invented the claim he was an Apostle of the resurrected Jesus.

The Pauline writer blatantly fabricated post-resurrection stories of Jesus.

Examine the confession of his invented Apostleship and fabricated Gospel of the resurrected Jesus.

Galatians 1

 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...........11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul, the Pauline Gospel and the Epistles are confirmed fabrications.

[Bernard Muller]

In the New Testament, equivalent expressions, such as "day of Jesus Christ, " are found in 1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6, 10; and 2 Peter 3:10, 12. "Day of the Lord" appears in 2 Thessalonians 2:2

.
Not accurate.
According to the Alexandrian version, "day of the Lord" (without Jesus or Jesus Christ) is in Acts 2:20, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10.
In 2 Corinthians 1:14 "Jesus" is added to "day of the Lord".
In 1 Corinthians 1:8 we have "day of our Lord Jesus Christ".
In Philippians 1:6 we have "day of Christ Jesus".
In 2 Peter 3:12 we have "day of God"

Cordially, Bernard