Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by John2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:01 pm

iskander,

Thanks, and not to be nitpicky, but that particular verse appears to refer only to the Ten Commandments, but I appreciate that you mean it in the sense of Dt. 4:1-2 and 12:32:
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I [Moses] am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
See that you do all I [Moses] command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Compare Dt. 5:22:
These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:25 pm

John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:01 pm
iskander,

Thanks, and not to be nitpicky, but that particular verse appears to refer only to the Ten Commandments, "but I appreciate that you mean it in the sense of Dt. 4:1-2 and 12:32:
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I [Moses] am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
See that you do all I [Moses] command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Compare Dt. 5:22:
These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
Jesus accepts the ten words as the only commandments given by God. The Stone Chumash Deut 5:19 omits the words : but He said no more", but adds --a great voice, never to be repeated--.


Any food we ingest is for the exclusive use of the body and some of it is eliminated as a harmful waste product : faeces and urine.

The heart stands for what make us human and hence a moral agent , the ten commandments is our guide as per Deut 5:19 .
The word of God--a great voice, never to be repeated-- versus the tradition of man.
Last edited by iskander on Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

John2
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by John2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:34 pm

iskander wrote:
Jesus accepts the ten words as the only commandments given by God.
That doesn't seem in keeping with Mk. 1:44:
See that you don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:46 pm

John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:34 pm
iskander wrote:
Jesus accepts the ten words as the only commandments given by God.
That doesn't seem in keeping with Mk. 1:44:
See that you don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Jesus was a man and his religious thinking changes with time. In Mark 1 :44 he probably wanted the 'keepers of the law' to reflect on the simple and beneficial change in front of their eyes.

Jesus was hoping then; show your happy face to them and perhaps we can hear the -- feeble voice of men, once again-- but more a pleasant one than before.

John2
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by John2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:16 pm

iskander wrote:
Jesus was a man and his religious thinking changes with time. In Mark 1 :44 he probably wanted the 'keepers of the law' to reflect on the simple and beneficial change in front of their eyes.

Jesus was hoping then; show your happy face to them and perhaps we can hear the -- feeble voice of men, once again-- but more a pleasant one than before.
Alright, I guess that's one way to look at it then.
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:21 pm

John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:16 pm
iskander wrote:
Jesus was a man and his religious thinking changes with time. In Mark 1 :44 he probably wanted the 'keepers of the law' to reflect on the simple and beneficial change in front of their eyes.

Jesus was hoping then; show your happy face to them and perhaps we can hear the -- feeble voice of men, once again-- but more a pleasant one than before.
Alright, I guess that's one way to look at it then.
yes , only one of several ways of looking at it :)
Last edited by iskander on Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:01 pm

moses wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 am
It's the "in saying this Jesus declared" (and similar iterations like "thus he declared," or "By saying this" and so forth) that's not in the Greek..
The Greek says, most literally, "Because it does not go into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into crapper [aphedron, "privy," "toilet"] purifying all meats."
The meaning in the Greek (and in the KJV too, though it's easy to overlook), is that Jesus is saying the digestive process spiritually purifies food, not that the food is clean before you eat it. The parentheticals in some translations are choices by the translators to convey an interpretation that Jesus was de facto declaring all food clean (because what's the difference when it technically becomes clean, Jesus still, in their minds saying it's ok to eat bacon). "Thus Jesus said" type parentheticals are editorial insertions. Pedantically speaking, though, the Greek doesn't say Jesus said all foods were clean, he said food won't make you unclean and that digestion will purify unclean meats, which is subtly different.
The meaning is not completely clear. The participle „purifying, cleansing“ in Mark 7:19 is in masculine singular. Logically it could refer either to the masculine „crapper“ in Mark 7:19 or to the „man“ in Mark 7:18 (then it's part of Jesus' saying) or to Jesus („he says“) in Mark 7:18 (then it's an additional comment by the author and would mean that Jesus in his saying is declaring all foods clean). Other preferred meanings are interpretations.

imho it refers to the "man" and the meaning of the saying is "No food can defile the man, but the man cleans the food". Note, there would be no claim that all food is clean. It's only the claim that even unclean food can't defile the man. That's a fine difference.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:57 am

moses wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 am
It's the "in saying this Jesus declared" (and similar iterations like "thus he declared," or "By saying this" and so forth) that's not in the Greek..
The Greek says, most literally, "Because it does not go into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into crapper [aphedron, "privy," "toilet"] purifying all meats."
The meaning in the Greek (and in the KJV too, though it's easy to overlook), is that Jesus is saying the digestive process spiritually purifies food, not that the food is clean before you eat it. The parentheticals in some translations are choices by the translators to convey an interpretation that Jesus was de facto declaring all food clean (because what's the difference when it technically becomes clean, Jesus still, in their minds saying it's ok to eat bacon). "Thus Jesus said" type parentheticals are editorial insertions. Pedantically speaking, though, the Greek doesn't say Jesus said all foods were clean, he said food won't make you unclean and that digestion will purify unclean meats, which is subtly different.
moses , I still would like to know from where you got this quote, please.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:45 am

moses wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 am
It's the "in saying this Jesus declared" (and similar iterations like "thus he declared," or "By saying this" and so forth) that's not in the Greek..
The Greek says, most literally, "Because it does not go into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into crapper [aphedron, "privy," "toilet"] purifying all meats."
The meaning in the Greek (and in the KJV too, though it's easy to overlook), is that Jesus is saying the digestive process spiritually purifies food, not that the food is clean before you eat it. The parentheticals in some translations are choices by the translators to convey an interpretation that Jesus was de facto declaring all food clean (because what's the difference when it technically becomes clean, Jesus still, in their minds saying it's ok to eat bacon). "Thus Jesus said" type parentheticals are editorial insertions. Pedantically speaking, though, the Greek doesn't say Jesus said all foods were clean, he said food won't make you unclean and that digestion will purify unclean meats, which is subtly different.
Mark 7 : 1-23
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Bruce Gore on the Gospel of Mark

moses
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by moses » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:40 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... h=390d89ce

Alexander, your quote from the above link

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