Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
moses
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:34 am

Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by moses » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:42 pm

Alexander, yes, priestly writers would have been well pissed with mark 7. YHWH is a HOLY god. His commands are holy. YHWH says that certain foods do defile.

iskander
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:46 am

moses wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:40 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... h=390d89ce

Alexander, your quote from the above link

Thank you moses . :thumbup:

The teaching of Jesus was a liberating event that shook the foundations of a sinister religion and he died for that reason.
Regrettably, Islam found a good use for that primitive religion as the unifying creed of the armies that conquered and conquered.

The phrase " the digestive process spiritually purifies food, " is so bizarre !

Steven Avery
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by Steven Avery » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:41 am

moses wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:42 pm
Alexander, yes, priestly writers would have been well pissed with mark 7. YHWH is a HOLY god. His commands are holy. YHWH says that certain foods do defile.
Going from memory, the "declare all foods clean" is a possible interpretation/extrapolation based on the minority variant, masculine, in the corruption versions.

The TR/Byz reading is neuter, and is as in the AV, and does not support the errant idea of declaring all foods clean.

Mark 7:18-19 (AV)
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also?
Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man,
it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?


Steven

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:58 am

that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Ritual impurity of any ingested food cannot defile man/woman and by extension a menstruating woman should be allowed into the sacred space in the temple....
Eat pig and kiss one's menstruating mother... because nothing from without enters your ' heart'
Ritual impurity exists no more.

It applies also to this situation :
chhaupadi
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3342

Many communities in Nepal view menstruating women as impure and in some remote areas they are forced to sleep in a hut away from home during their periods, a custom known as chhaupadi.


Chhaupadi is linked to Hinduism and considers women untouchable when they menstruate, as well as after childbirth.
They are banished from the home -- barred from touching food, religious icons, cattle and men -- and forced to sleep in basic huts known as chhau goth."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... r_bleeding

iskander
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees

Post by iskander » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:31 am

John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:04 am
I took a look at Mark 7 and this is how it looks to me.

First, let's consider the context. Right before 7:14-23, Jesus castigates the Pharisees in 7:5-13 for letting go of "the commands of God and holding on to human traditions":
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
So why would Jesus then go on to "nullify the word of God" himself in 7:14-23? But I see that Jesus doesn't say anything about eating unclean food here. It is Mark's interpretation of what Jesus is saying:
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”


I think the last section explains the first one. In other words, I think he's saying metaphorically that you can simply crap out the traditions of the Pharisees and not be defiled by them since "their teachings are merely human rules." This would be in keeping with 7:1-4:
The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)
So in my view, Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees. To say that he is "setting aside the commands of God" concerning clean and unclean food (like Mark thinks) would make Jesus a hypocrite too.
John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:04 am
Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees
Yes , I have read Boyarin's , The Jewish Gospels, again. He says that Jesus in Mark 7 was only opposing an innovation of the Pharisees which modified the Torah .


To call food kosher refers to its permissibility for eating by Jews as defined in the Torah , these laws are observed to the letter by pious Jews even today, These dietary laws , kashrut , was not the modification Jesus was opposing in Mark 7.

The innovation of the Pharisees that Jesus found unacceptable was the set of rules that define when any food -kosher or not--is pure or impure , depending on how that food was handled .

Boyarin writes that both Mark and Jesus were Jewish and knew they were separating different sets of Hebrew words , muttar and tahor.

iskander
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees

Post by iskander » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:48 pm

iskander wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:31 am
John2 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:04 am
Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees
Yes , I have read Boyarin's , The Jewish Gospels, again. He says that Jesus in Mark 7 was only opposing an innovation of the Pharisees which modified the Torah .


To call food kosher refers to its permissibility for eating by Jews as defined in the Torah , these laws are observed to the letter by pious Jews even today, These dietary laws , kashrut , was not the modification Jesus was opposing in Mark 7.

The innovation of the Pharisees that Jesus found unacceptable was the set of rules that define when any food -kosher or not--is pure or impure , depending on how that food was handled .

Boyarin writes that both Mark and Jesus were Jewish and knew they were separating different sets of Hebrew words , muttar and tahor.
In page 115 of the same book Boyarin writes the following:
"The Pharisees sought to convince other Jews to adhere to their new standards of strictness ( this is apparently the meaning of them going over land and sea to convert--- they were attempting to" convert" other Jews , not Gentiles)"


In modern parlance the proto rabbis ( Pharisees) were heretics and Jesus was the tzaddic ( righteous man).

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