Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
moses
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Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by moses » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 am

It's the "in saying this Jesus declared" (and similar iterations like "thus he declared," or "By saying this" and so forth) that's not in the Greek..
The Greek says, most literally, "Because it does not go into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into crapper [aphedron, "privy," "toilet"] purifying all meats."
The meaning in the Greek (and in the KJV too, though it's easy to overlook), is that Jesus is saying the digestive process spiritually purifies food, not that the food is clean before you eat it. The parentheticals in some translations are choices by the translators to convey an interpretation that Jesus was de facto declaring all food clean (because what's the difference when it technically becomes clean, Jesus still, in their minds saying it's ok to eat bacon). "Thus Jesus said" type parentheticals are editorial insertions. Pedantically speaking, though, the Greek doesn't say Jesus said all foods were clean, he said food won't make you unclean and that digestion will purify unclean meats, which is subtly different.

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:53 pm

moses wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 am
It's the "in saying this Jesus declared" (and similar iterations like "thus he declared," or "By saying this" and so forth) that's not in the Greek..
The Greek says, most literally, "Because it does not go into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into crapper [aphedron, "privy," "toilet"] purifying all meats."
The meaning in the Greek (and in the KJV too, though it's easy to overlook), is that Jesus is saying the digestive process spiritually purifies food, not that the food is clean before you eat it. The parentheticals in some translations are choices by the translators to convey an interpretation that Jesus was de facto declaring all food clean (because what's the difference when it technically becomes clean, Jesus still, in their minds saying it's ok to eat bacon). "Thus Jesus said" type parentheticals are editorial insertions. Pedantically speaking, though, the Greek doesn't say Jesus said all foods were clean, he said food won't make you unclean and that digestion will purify unclean meats, which is subtly different.
Shit is purified food?

moses
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by moses » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:35 am

is that what mark is saying?

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:39 am

moses wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:35 am
is that what mark is saying?
You are the author of the OP. What is the text in mark 7 : 1-23 saying ?

moses
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by moses » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:04 am

i am not the author of the quote. i asked a question and then i placed a quote in the op.

i don't know what mark 7:1-23 is saying when people can't even decide what 7:19 is saying .

are all foods kosher before they are eaten ? is there a difference between clean and kosher?

iskander
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:27 am

moses wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:04 am
i am not the author of the quote. i asked a question and then i placed a quote in the op.

i don't know what mark 7:1-23 is saying when people can't even decide what 7:19 is saying .

are all foods kosher before they are eaten ? is there a difference between clean and kosher?
The quote posted in the OP is an interpretation of Mark 7 :1-23. Why did you choose that particular commentary?

perseusomega9
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:57 am

To...ask...a...question???????

John2
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by John2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:04 am

I took a look at Mark 7 and this is how it looks to me.

First, let's consider the context. Right before 7:14-23, Jesus castigates the Pharisees in 7:5-13 for letting go of "the commands of God and holding on to human traditions":
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
So why would Jesus then go on to "nullify the word of God" himself in 7:14-23? But I see that Jesus doesn't say anything about eating unclean food here. It is Mark's interpretation of what Jesus is saying:
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”


I think the last section explains the first one. In other words, I think he's saying metaphorically that you can simply crap out the traditions of the Pharisees and not be defiled by them since "their teachings are merely human rules." This would be in keeping with 7:1-4:
The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)
So in my view, Jesus is simply saying not to observe the traditions of the Pharisees. To say that he is "setting aside the commands of God" concerning clean and unclean food (like Mark thinks) would make Jesus a hypocrite too.
Last edited by John2 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now the die is shaken, now the die must fall, there ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all.

John2
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Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by John2 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:48 pm

This also seems in keeping with Mark 2:23-28 (where again the context is debating with the Pharisees):
One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
This offense arguably fell under the "no reaping" part of forbidden work on the Sabbath outlined in later Rabbinic Judaism:
The Rabbis decreed that one not only should avoid forbidden acts but also must not do anything that (1) resembles a prohibited act or could be confused with it, (2) is a habit linked with a prohibited act, or (3) usually leads to performing a prohibited act.

The rabbinic enactment of measures to prevent these possibilities was termed “putting a fence around the Torah” (Avot 1:1). For example, ripping up a piece of paper was forbidden since it resembles “cutting to shape” or could be confused with it.

Similarly, agreeing to buy something was prohibited, because most agreements are confirmed in “writing”; climbing a tree is forbidden, because it may lead to breaking twigs or tearing leaves, which could be construed as “reaping” (i.e., separating part of a growing plant from its source. Other activities that by extension are prohibited on the Sabbath include the following:

•Adding fresh water to a vase of cut flowers (sowing –any activity that causes or furthers plant growth).
•Making a bouquet of flowers (making a sheaf).
•Separating good fruit from spoiled fruit (winnowing, selecting, sifting).
•Brushing dried mud from boots or clothes (grinding).
•Cutting hair or nails (shearing sheep-removing outer covering of a human or animal).
•Applying makeup (dyeing).
•Braiding hair (weaving).
•Drawing blood for a blood test (slaughtering).
•Rubbing soap to make lather, applying face cream, polishing shoes, using scouring powder for utensils or other surfaces (scraping-smoothing the surface of any material by grinding, rubbing, or polishing).
•Sharpening a pencil (cutting to shape-altering the size or shape of an item to make it better for human use).
•Painting, drawing, typing (writing, making durable marks on a durable material).
•Tearing through lettering on a package (erasing).
•Opening an umbrella or unfolding a screen (building).
•Smoking a cigarette, using the telephone (kindling a fire).
•Switching off an electric light (extinguishing a fire).
•Setting or winding a clock or watch (finishing off).
•Wearing eyeglasses not permanently required (carrying from private to public domain and vice versa).

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... ohibition/
In my view the Pharisees are accusing Jesus' followers of "reaping" in this very strict sense (like the climbing a tree example above), i.e., it is yet another "human rule" (i.e., the Oral Torah) that doesn't need to be observed because it is not "the word of God" (i.e., the Written Torah). I see it like Muthiah, who writes:
Sometimes these words have been taken to mean that Sabbath no longer matters, but Jesus' response could not have meant, "ignore the Sabbath," because Jesus himself observes the Sabbath regularly. For example, Mark tells us that "Jesus and his followers went into Capernaum. Immediately on the Sabbath Jesus entered the synagogue and started teaching" (Mark 1:21). We read in numerous other places too about Jesus going to the synagogue on the Sabbath. He was an observant Jew and his attendance and teaching in the synagogue were part of regular Sabbath observance.

In his confrontation over picking grain on the Sabbath, Jesus was not abolishing the Sabbath but was challenging the way it had come to be understood and practiced. The day was never intended to rule over people. Rather, the day was intended to serve people by connecting them to God. The role of the Sabbath was in a sense to watch over the covenantal relationship between God and God's people. It was never intended to police alleged petty offenses.

https://books.google.com/books?id=omSPC ... us&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now the die is shaken, now the die must fall, there ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all.

iskander
Posts: 1827
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Did Jesus declare all foods clean?

Post by iskander » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:09 pm

Yes :thumbup:
deut va 5.19.PNG
deut va 5.19.PNG (23.5 KiB) Viewed 1331 times
There are only traditions --not the word of God.

But He added no more

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