An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

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neilgodfrey
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An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by neilgodfrey »

M.I. Finley, a well-known historian of ancient history "in my time" (ouch!), addressed the field of scholarly work on Christian origins in a chapter in Aspects of Antiquity: Discoveries and Controversies (1968) -- though I see that the relevant chapter in that book was first published 1964 (when I was still a child!).

Finley is addressing the work of Maurice Goguel (best known among some of us here for his book against the mythicism of his day) and comes to something by another well-known name, A.N. Sherwin-White:
An Oxford historian, Mr A. N. Sherwin-White, has recently insisted that the life of Christ as told in the Gospels and the life of Tiberius as related by Tacitus or the account of the Persian Wars in Herodotus are all of a kind, subject to the same tests and having the same general aims. ‘Not’, he adds, ‘that one imagines that the authors of the Gospels set to work precisely like either Herodotus or Thucydides.’ Not precisely? Not at all. He has forgotten that the Greek verb at the root of ‘history’ is historein, to inquire, which is what Herodotus set out to do, and what the authors of the Gospels (or the apologetic writers and theologians) did not set out to do. The latter bore witness, an activity of an altogether different order.
So we see that Finley called out the rhetorical sleights of hand practised by Jesus scholars.

Finley then turned to a work exploring the nature of history:
In R. G. Collingwood’s justly famous dictum,
theocratic history ... means not history proper ... but a statement of known facts for the information of persons to whom they are not known, but who, as worshippers of the god in question, ought to know the deeds whereby he has made himself manifest
The real difficulty begins if one agrees with Collingwood. Once the existence of a process of myth-making is accepted, the question is, How does one make a history out of such historiographically unpromising materials? There are no others. A handful of sentences in pagan writers, wholly unilluminating, and a few passages in Josephus and the Talmud, tendentious when they are not forgeries, are all we have from non-Christian sources for the first century or century and a half of Christianity. It is no exaggeration to say that they contribute nothing. One must work one’s way as best one can with the Christian writings, with no external controls.
"With no external controls"? That is the very phrase I have been using in my own criticisms of the methodology used by biblical scholars presenting themselves as historians. It is nice to see I have some support from a renowned deceased scholar.

But back to Goguel. This was before the days of formalized (ossified) concepts of "criteria of authenticity" but we can see where the precursors fit when he speaks of "logical and psychological" tests (= criteria of coherence, plausibility...):
One simple example will suffice. When asked by the Pharisees for ‘a sign from Heaven’, Jesus replied, ‘There shall be no sign given unto this generation’ (Mark viii, 11-12). Goguel comments:
This saying is certainly authentic, for it could not have been created by primitive Christianity which attached a great importance to the miracles of Jesus ... This leads us to think that Jesus did not want to work marvels, that is to say, acts of pure display.
It follows that stories like those of Jesus walking on water are ‘extremely doubtful’. His healing, on the other hand, may be accepted, and, in conformity with the beliefs prevailing at the time, ‘it is true that these healings were regarded as miracles both by Jesus himself and by those who were the recipients of his bounty.’

This application of the ‘psychological method’ is neat, plausible, commonsensical. But is the answer right? Not only in this one example but in the thousands upon thousands of details in the story upon which Goguel or any other historian must make up his mind? I do not know what decisive tests of verifiability could possibly be applied. The myth-making process has a kind of logic of its own, but it is not the logic of Aristotle or of Bertrand Russell. Therefore it does not follow that it always avoids inconsistency: it is capable of retaining, and even inventing, sayings and events which, in what we call strict logic, undermine its most cherished beliefs. The difficulties are of course most acute at the beginning, with the life of Jesus. One influential modern school, which goes under the name of ‘form-criticism’, has even abandoned history at this stage completely. ‘In my opinion,’ wrote Rudolph Bultmann, ‘we can sum up what can be known of the life and personality of Jesus as simply nothing.’
The emphases are my own, of course.

It does not appear that Finley was prepared to go along with the methods, let alone conclusions, of biblical scholars in their efforts to establish what was historical about Jesus.

I doubt that he was a shag on a rock.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by andrewcriddle »

FWIW Finley entirely accepted the existence of a historical Jesus, see for example his article The Jews and the Death of Jesus
(he also accepted that the NT documents are mostly roughly contemporary with the events described i.e. 1st century CE.)
What he doubted was the ability of modern scholars to reconstruct more than the very basic essentials of the life of Jesus.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:40 am FWIW Finley entirely accepted the existence of a historical Jesus, see for example his article The Jews and the Death of Jesus
(he also accepted that the NT documents are mostly roughly contemporary with the events described i.e. 1st century CE.)
What he doubted was the ability of modern scholars to reconstruct more than the very basic essentials of the life of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
That essay is part of the same chapter I quoted selections from. So how do you account for Finley's apparent inconsistency?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:40 am FWIW Finley entirely accepted the existence of a historical Jesus, see for example his article The Jews and the Death of Jesus
. . . .
What he doubted was the ability of modern scholars to reconstruct more than the very basic essentials of the life of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
Not quite. He doubted considerably more than that.

From the essay you cite:
[T]he Gospel accounts . . . are the sole source of information about the Passion - that cannot be said often enough or sharply enough - and all four agree on the responsibility of some Jews. . . .

What, then, actually happened? Not even the Synoptic Gospels provide a clear and coherent account, and there are added confusions and impossibilities in the Fourth Gospel. There is one school of thought, to which I belong, which holds that no reconstruction is possible from such unsatisfactory evidence.
Zilch. Nothing can be reconstructed from the gospels, and that's for the reasons he set out in the earlier part of the same chapter (cited in the OP).

Finley again returned to Sherwin-White's misleading comparison of the gospels with Greek histories:
Even if one could accept the view recently re-stated with much vigour by A. N. Sherwin-White in Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament, that the Acts and Gospels are qualitatively no different as historical sources from Herodotus or Tacitus, one does not get very far. Mr Sherwin-White has been able to demonstrate that the New Testament is very accurate in its details about life at the time, whether about geography and travel or the rules of citizenship and court procedures. Why should it not be? It is made up of contemporary documents, regardless of the accuracy of the narrative, and so reflects society as it was. That still does not tell us anything about the narrative details, and they are what matters. For that Mr Sherwin-White must, in the end, select and reject, explain and explain away, just as every other scholar has done for as long as anyone has felt the urge (and the possibility) of a historical reconstruction of the Passion.
And that's exactly what we read so often even among biblical scholars -- that background details somehow lend historical credibility to the gospel narrative.
He is probably right, but it still does not follow, as he seems to think, that the veracity of the Gospel narrative has thereby been substantiated, or even been made more probable in a significant sense.

Far be it from me to suggest, no matter how faintly, that it is ever unimportant to get the historical record right. But the feeling will not go away that there is an Alice-in-Wonderland quality about it all.
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Paul the Uncertain
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Neil

I am at sea, and perhaps you will be so kind as to help me.

The statement from Finley you commented upon, having bolded it:
There is one school of thought, to which I belong, which holds that no reconstruction is possible from such unsatisfactory evidence.
and your comment about that statement was
Zilch. Nothing can be reconstructed from the gospels, and that's for the reasons he set out in the earlier part of the same chapter (cited in the OP).
in apparent rebuttal of another poster's summary of Finley:
What he doubted was the ability of modern scholars to reconstruct more than the very basic essentials of the life of Jesus.
There appears to be an omitted step needed for your quoted matter to serve as rebuttal. It would be helpful for my understanding if you would entertain the following query:

Yes or no, did Finley define "reconstruction" so broadly as to include narrow assertions about "the very basic essentials" about a natural person? If no, then did he define the term in any way contrary to the other poster's summary of Finley's views?

Thank you for your attention to this query.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

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Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:55 am Neil

I am at sea, and perhaps you will be so kind as to help me.

The statement from Finley you commented upon, having bolded it:
There is one school of thought, to which I belong, which holds that no reconstruction is possible from such unsatisfactory evidence.
and your comment about that statement was
Zilch. Nothing can be reconstructed from the gospels, and that's for the reasons he set out in the earlier part of the same chapter (cited in the OP).
in apparent rebuttal of another poster's summary of Finley:
What he doubted was the ability of modern scholars to reconstruct more than the very basic essentials of the life of Jesus.
There appears to be an omitted step needed for your quoted matter to serve as rebuttal. It would be helpful for my understanding if you would entertain the following query:

Yes or no, did Finley define "reconstruction" so broadly as to include narrow assertions about "the very basic essentials" about a natural person? If no, then did he define the term in any way contrary to the other poster's summary of Finley's views?

Thank you for your attention to this query.
What a load of bullshit. :-) Yes, Finley's meaning was clear: without controls no historical reconstruction of any kind can be made from the gospel sources.
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Paul the Uncertain
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Neil

Thank you so much for the taking the time to clarify your take on Finley's position.
andrewcriddle
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by andrewcriddle »

Finley may have agreed with Bultmann that we know that there was a historical Jesus and that he was crucified, but we can say nothing more.
IMVHO he was probably not quite as sceptical as that. The essay on Goguel, (from which the original extracts come), is, read as a whole, mildly positive towards Goguel's achievement in reconstructing Christian origins.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:56 am Finley may have agreed with Bultmann that we know that there was a historical Jesus and that he was crucified, but we can say nothing more.
IMVHO he was probably not quite as sceptical as that. The essay on Goguel, (from which the original extracts come), is, read as a whole, mildly positive towards Goguel's achievement in reconstructing Christian origins.

Andrew Criddle
Finley is dead and we cannot ask him. We can read his chapter in Aspects. You raised the question of "belief in the historical Jesus" -- an issue that Finley does not address and that I did not reference at all either.

Finley's chapter, in particular the second section, is clear: he is discussing methodology and explains the impossibility of reconstructing any valid historical information from a source that lacks any controls. In the third section he reminds readers again that we have no controls for the gospel narratives.

That is the point of Finley's chapter: that we can draw no historical information from the gospels about Jesus because we have no controls by which to make an assessment of the historicity of their narrative content.

Full stop. Whether Finley in addition to being a historian of sound methods also had a personal faith that led him to believe in the historical existence of Jesus, or whether he was subject to what Fischer called the fallacy of the prevalent proof (accepting what others say simply because it is widely said) I do not know. He gives no indication of that, not even by "tone", in his chapter.

To fall back on the vague notion of "tone" without any evidence to declare anything more than what Finley is saying in his chapter is not very satisfactory.

When he talks about the death of Jesus it is evident, within context of his explicit argument, that he is speaking of the narrative found in the gospels. To say that the wolf devoured Red Riding's grandmother does not imply, not even in tone, that I believe the incident was historical. Finley says according to the gospels Jesus was killed because of the Jews but it is that narrative that he later says takes on an "Alice in Wonderland" character in the way it is addressed today.

"Tone" is a literary judgment that can be supported by argument referencing the language. To be a credible rebuttal that evidence needs to be presented.
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Re: An ancient historian writes about historical Jesus studies

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fwiw, I have developed the OP into a wider discussion of the methods and assumptions of both biblical scholars using the gospel narratives as if they are historical sources and other ancient historians doing much the same with Greco-Roman histories: An Ancient Historian on Historical Jesus Studies, — and on Ancient Sources Generally
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