Could Basilides be Josephus?

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MrMacSon
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Could Basilides be Josephus?

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.
In Wars, 6.5.4, Josephus himself interprets the Oracle of [Mount] Carmel to be a prophecy concerning Vespasian.

Tacitus never mentions Josephus. He mentions the name Basilides twice; once as a priest, and again as a 'vision'.

1. In Tacitus' Histories 2, 78, the Oracle is interpreted by the priest Basilides, who states ' there is given you a vast habitation, boundless territory, a multitude of men'; which seems to align Basilides with Josephus.

Histories 2, 78
78 ... Between Judea and Syria lies Carmel: this is the name given to both the mountain and the divinity. The god has no image or temple — such is the rule handed down by the fathers; there is only an altar and the worship of the god.

When Vespasian was sacrificing there and thinking over his secret hopes in his heart, the priest Basilides, after repeated inspection of the victim's vitals, said to him: "Whatever you are planning, Vespasian, whether to build a house, or to enlarge your holdings, or to increase the number of your slaves, the god grants you a mighty home, limitless bounds, and a multitude of men." This obscure oracle rumour had caught up at the time, and now was trying to interpret; nothing indeed was more often on men's lips. It was discussed even more in Vespasian's presence — for men have more to say to those who are filled with hope. The two leaders now separated with clear purposes before them, Mucianus going to Antioch, Vespasian to Caesarea. Antioch is the capital of Syria, Caesarea of Judea.

79 1 The transfer of the imperial power to Vespasian began at Alexandria, where Tiberius Alexander acted quickly, administering to his troops the oath of allegiance on the first of July.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/2B*.html


2. Basilides of Alexandria appears in Tacitus' Histories 4, 82, as 'a supernatural vision'; Vespasian 'drew a prophecy from the name Basilides'.


So, there are two references to Basilides in Tacitus' Histories: with the same or a similar role that Josephus gave himself in Wars, but in difference places; one at [Mount] Carmel, the other in Alexandria.


'Basilides' isn't mentioned in Josephus.

_______________________________


Suetonius mentions a similar story to Hist 4, 82 in Vespasian 7, but without prophecy; before Vespasian goes on to heal a blind man1 and a lame man2 -
Having, therefore, entered on a civil war, and sent forward his generals and forces into Italy, he [Vespasian] himself, in the meantime, passed over to Alexandria, to obtain possession of the key of Egypt.

Here having entered alone, without attendants, the temple of Serapis, to take the auspices respecting the establishment of his power, and having done his utmost to propitiate the deity, upon turning round, [his freedman] Basilides appeared before him, and seemed to offer him the sacred leaves, chaplets, and cakes, according to the usage of the place, although no one had admitted him, and he had long laboured under a muscular debility, which would hardly have allowed him to walk into the temple; besides which, it was certain that at the very time he was far away.

Immeiately after this, arrived letters with intelligence that Vitellius's troops had been defeated at Cremona, and he himself slain at Rome. Vespasian, the new emperor, having been raised unexpectedly from a low estate, wanted something which might clothe him with divine majesty and authority. This, likewise, was now added.

A poor man who was blind, and another who was lame, came both together before him, when he was seated on the tribunal, imploring him to heal them,3 and saying that they were admonished in a dream by the god Serapis to seek his aid, who assured them that he would restore sight to the one by anointing his eyes with his spittle, and give strength to the leg of the other, if he vouchsafed but to touch it with his heel. At first he could scarcely believe that the thing would any how succeed, and therefore hesitated to venture on making the experiment. At length, however, by the advice of his friends, he made the attempt publicly, in the presence of the assembled multitudes, and it was crowned with success in both cases. About the same time, at Tegea in Arcadia, by the direction of some soothsayers, several vessels of ancient workmanship were dug out of a consecrated place, on which there was an effigy resembling Vespasian.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 1348,020:7
1 as Jesus does in Luke 18:35-43; Mark 8:22-25 (with spittle); & in John 9 (with clay and water)

2 as Jesus does in Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; & John 5;

_________________________________________________

Why did Tacitus not mention Josephus? - Perhaps Tacitus knew him as Basilides(?), or decided to portrayed him as Basilides, which means 'King's Son'; which in turn parallels Jesus, as being the Son of a King (Josephus claimed descent from royalty).

(eta2 - and I don't think Suetonius mentions Josephus: - See two posts below and reference to Suetonius' Vespasian 5.6.

________________________________________________

A Basilides is supposed to have been an early Gnostic religious teacher in Alexandria, Egypt.

Basilides appears as a Bishop of Serapis.

________________________________________________

Proposition:

Josephus appears in Tacitus and early Christianity as Basilides, or Josephus was involved with the founding of Christianity, or ...
__________________________________________________
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 19 times in total.
Ibn Rushd
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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That is certainly interesting and not something I have considered before.
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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Ibn Rushd wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:35 pm That is certainly interesting and not something I have considered before.
Cheers. I've edited that opening post to hopefully make it flow better (I had the notes sitting there for ages, and decided to post them late one night).
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

Post by John2 »

This is a curious question so I thought I'd look into it.

In Tacitus Hist. 4.62 Basilides is said to be from Egypt:
... he [Vespasian] saw behind him one of the leading men of Egypt, named Basilides ...
And Suetonius does mention Josephus in Vespasian 5.6 and appears to distinguish him from the Carmel oracle and other omens about Vespasian becoming emperor:
When he [Vespasian] consulted the oracle of the god of Carmel in Judaea, the lots were highly encouraging, promising that whatever he planned or wished however great it might be, would come to pass;and one of his high-born prisoners, Josephus by name, as he was being put in chains, declared most confidently that he would soon be released by the same man, who would then, however, be emperor. Omens were also reported from Rome: Nero in his latter days was admonished in a dream to take the sacred chariot of Jupiter Optimus Maximus from its shrine to the house of Vespasian and from there to the Circus. Not long after this, too, when Galba was on his way to the elections which gave him his second consulship, a statue of the Deified Julius of its own accord turned towards the East; and on the field of Betriacum, before the battle began, two eagles fought in the sight of all, and when one was vanquished, a third came from the direction of the rising sun and drove off the victor.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/r ... sian*.html
As for why Tacitus does not mention Josephus, I don't know, but he appears to at least be familiar with him, given the correspondences between Josephus and Tacitus Hist. 5:13:
Prodigies had indeed occurred, but to avert them either by victims or by vows is held unlawful by a people which, though prone to superstition, is opposed to all propitiatory rites. Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: "The gods are departing": at the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard. Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world. This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity
War 6.5.3:
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
War. 6.5.4:
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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John2 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm
This is a curious question so I thought I'd look into it.

In Tacitus Hist. 4.82 Basilides is said to be from Egypt ...


And Suetonius does mention Josephus in Vespasian 5.6 and appears to distinguish him from the Carmel oracle and other omens about Vespasian becoming emperor:
When he [Vespasian] consulted the oracle of the god of Carmel in Judaea, the lots were highly encouraging, promising that whatever he planned or wished however great it might be, would come to pass; and one of his high-born prisoners, Josephus by name, as he was being put in chains, declared most confidently that he would soon be released by the same man, who would then, however, be emperor.

Omens were also reported from Rome ...

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/r ... sian*.html
Cheers John2. I may have had Vesp. 5.6 in mind when I first made notes about this, but have forgotten (I just decided to get this off the to-do list without further ado). I have edited the OP to refer to this.

I wonder if Vesp. 5.6 could refer to, or lead to, the oracle being conflated with Jospehus's prophecy(?)

John2 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm
As for why Tacitus does not mention Josephus, I don't know, but he appears to at least be familiar with him, given the correspondences between Josephus War 6.5.3-4 and Tacitus Hist. 5:13 ...
Cheers, again.
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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.
Vesp. 5.5 is interesting too (in relation to a dream about Nero) -
He dreamed in Greece that the beginning of good fortune for himself and his family would come as soon as Nero had a tooth extracted; and on the next day it came to pass that a physician walked into the hall and showed him a tooth which he had just then taken out.
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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Eusebius H.E. bk IV, chapter VII.—'The Persons that became at that Time Leaders of Knowledge falsely so-called'.1015

1. As the churches throughout the world were now shining like the most brilliant stars, and faith in our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ was flourishing among the whole human race,1016 the demon who hates everything that is good, and is always hostile to the truth, and most bitterly opposed to the salvation of man, turned all his arts against the Church.1017 In the beginning he armed himself against it with external persecutions.
  • 1016 This statement is of course an exaggeration. See above, Bk. II. chap. 3, note 1.

2. But now, being shut off from the use of such means,1018 he devised all sorts of plans, and employed other methods in his conflict with the Church, using base and deceitful men as instruments for the ruin of souls and as ministers of destruction. Instigated by him, impostors and deceivers, assuming the name of our religion, brought to the depth of ruin such of the believers as they could win over, and at the same time, by means of the deeds which they practiced, turned away from the path which leads to the word of salvation those who were ignorant of the faith.

3. Accordingly there proceeded from that Menander, whom we have already mentioned as the successor of Simon,1019 a certain serpent-like power, double-tongued and two-headed, which produced the leaders of two different heresies, Saturninus, an Antiochian by birth,1020 and Basilides, an Alexandrian.1021 The former of these established schools of godless heresy in Syria, the latter in Alexandria.
  • 1021 Basilides was one of the greatest and most famous of the Gnostics. Irenæus (I. 24) and the early Compendium of Hippolytus (now lost, but used together with Irenæus’ work by Epiphanius in his treatise against heresies) described a form of Basilidianism which was not the original, but a later corruption of the system.

    On the other hand, Clement of Alexandria surely, and Hippolytus, in the fuller account in his Philosoph. (VII. 2 sq.), probably drew their knowledge of the system directly from Basilides’ own work, the Exegetica, and hence represent the form of doctrine taught by Basilides himself,—a form differing greatly from the later corruptions of it which Irenæus discusses. This system was very profound, and bore in many respects a lofty character.

    Basilides had apparently few followers (his son Isidore is the only prominent one known to us); and though his system created a great impression at the start,—so much so that his name always remained one of the most famous of Gnostic names,—it had little vitality, and soon died out or was corrupted beyond recognition. He was mentioned of course in all the general works against heresies written by the Fathers, but no one seems to have composed an especial refutation of his system except Agrippa Castor, to whom Eusebius refers.

    Irenæus informs us that he taught at Alexandria, Hippolytus (VII. 15) mentions simply Egypt, while Epiphanius (XXI. 1) names various Egyptian cities in which he labored, but it is evident that he is only enumerating places in which there were Basilidians in his time. It is not certain whether he is to be identified with the Basilides who is mentioned in the Acts of Archelaus as preaching in Persia.

    For an excellent account of Basilides and his system, see the article by Hort in the Dict. of Christ. Biog.; and in addition to the works of Neander, Baur, and Lipsius on Gnosticism in general, see especially Uhlhorn’s Das Basilidianische System, Göttingen, 1855.

4. Irenæus states [1022; Adv. Hær. I. 24] that the false teaching of Saturninus agreed in most respects with that of Menander, but that Basilides, under the pretext of unspeakable mysteries, invented monstrous fables, and carried the fictions of his impious heresy quite beyond bounds.

5. But as there were at that time a great many members of the Church1023 who were fighting for the truth and defending apostolic and ecclesiastical doctrine with uncommon eloquence, so there were some also that furnished posterity through their writings with means of defense against the heresies to which we have referred.1024

6. Of these there has come down to us a most powerful refutation of Basilides by Agrippa Castor,1025 one of 179 the most renowned writers of that day, which shows the terrible imposture of the man.
  • 1025 Of Agrippa Castor we know only what Eusebius tells us here. Jerome (de vir. ill. chap. 21) adds nothing new, and Theodoret’s statement (Fab. I. 4), that Agrippa wrote against Basilides’ son, Isidore, as well as against Basilides himself, is simply an expansion of Eusebius’ account, and does not imply the existence of another work. Agrippa’s production, of which we do not know even the title, has entirely disappeared.

7. While exposing his mysteries he says that Basilides wrote twenty-four books upon the Gospel,1026 and that he invented prophets for himself named Barcabbas and Barcoph,1027 and others that had no existence, and that he gave them barbarous names in order to amaze those who marvel at such things; that he taught also that the eating of meat offered to idols and the unguarded renunciation of the faith in times of persecution were matters of indifference;1028 and that he enjoined upon his followers, like Pythagoras, a silence of five years.1029
  • 1026 εἰς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον βιβλία. Clement of Alexandria (Strom. IV. 12) quotes from the twenty-third book of the Exegetica of Basilides.

    Origen (Hom. in Luc. I.) says that Basilides “had even the audacity to write a Gospel according to Basilides,” and this remark is repeated by Ambrose (Exp. in Luc. I. 1), and seems to be Jerome’s authority for the enumeration of a Gospel of Basilides among the Apocryphal Gospels in his Comment in Matt., præf. We know nothing more about this Gospel, and it is quite possible that Origen mistook the Exegetica for a Gospel.

    We do not know upon what Gospels Basilides wrote his Commentary (or Exegetica), but it is hardly probable that he would have expounded his own Gospel even if such a work existed.

    The passage from the Exegetica which Clement quotes looks to me like a part of an exposition of John ix. (although Lipsius, in the Dict. of Christ. Biog. II. 715, suggests Luke xxi. 12).

    Meanwhile, in the Acta Archelai, chap. 55 (see Gallandii Bibl. PP. III. 608), is a quotation from “the thirteenth book of the treatises (tractatuum) of Basilides,” which is an exposition of the parable of Dives and Lazarus (Luke xvi.). If this is the same work, it would seem that the Exegetica must have included at least Luke and John, possibly Matthew also, for we know that the Gospels of Matthew, Luke, and John were all used by the Basilidians. The respective positions in the work of the expositions of the passages from Luke and John (the former in the thirteenth, the latter in the twenty-third, book) would seem, however, to exclude Matthew, if the books were at all of equal length. If Lipsius were correct in regarding the latter passage as an exposition of Luke xxi. 12, there would be no evidence that the Commentary covered more than a single Gospel.
  • 1027 .. Clement of Alexandria (Strom. VI. 6) speaks of the Expositions of the Prophet Parchor by Isidore, the son of Basilides. This may be another of Basilides’ prophets, but is more probably identical with the oft-mentioned Barcoph. In the second book of these Expositions, as quoted by Clement, occurs a reference to the prophecy of Cham or Ham.

    Rienstra (De Euseb. Hist. Eccles. p. 29) thinks that Agrippa Castor was mistaken in saying that Basilides mentioned these prophets; but there seems to be no good reason to deny the accuracy of the report, even though we know nothing more about the prophets mentioned. Hort (Dict. of Christ. Biog., article Barcabbas) thinks it likely that the prophecies current among the various Gnostic bodies belonged to the apocryphal Zoroastrian literature.
  • 1028 This was not a doctrine of Basilides himself, but of his followers (compare the accounts of Irenæus and Hippolytus).

    If Agrippa Castor represented Basilides’ position thus, as Eusebius says he did (though Eusebius may be only following Irenæus), it is an evidence that he did not live at the early date to which Eusebius assigns him, and this goes to confirm the view stated above, in note 10.

    Basilides himself taught at least a moderate asceticism, while his followers went off into crude dualism and moral license (see the excellent account of Schaff, Ch. Hist. II. 466 sq.).

8. Other similar things the above-mentioned writer has recorded concerning Basilides, and has ably exposed the error of his heresy.

9. Irenæus also writes1030 that Carpocrates was a contemporary of these men, and that he was the father of another heresy, called the heresy of the Gnostics,1031 who did not wish to transmit any longer the magic arts of Simon, as that one1032 had done, in secret, but openly.1033 For they boasted—as of something great—of love potions that were carefully prepared by them, and of certain demons that sent them dreams and lent them their protection, and of other similar agencies; and in accordance with these things they taught that it was necessary for those who wished to enter fully into their mysteries, or rather into their abominations, to practice all the worst kinds of wickedness, on the ground that they could escape the cosmic powers, as they called them, in no other way than by discharging their 180 obligations to them all by infamous conduct.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf20 ... x.vii.html

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MrMacSon
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

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Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai, aka Rabbaz

Yochanan ben Zakkai was the youngest and most distinguished disciple of Rabbi Hillel. He has been called the "father of wisdom and the father of generations (of scholars)" because he ensured the continuation of Jewish scholarship after Jerusalem fell [to Rome in 70 C.E].

According to tradition, Yochananben Zakkai was a pacifist in Jerusalem in 68 C.E. when the city was under siege by General Vespasian. Jerusalem was controlled by the Zealots, people who would rather die than surrender to Rome (these are the same people who controlled Masada).

Ben Zakkai urged surrender, but the Zealots would not hear of it, so ben Zakkai faked his own death and had his disciples smuggle him out of Jerusalem in a coffin. They carried the coffin to Vespasian's tent, where ben Zakkai emerged from the coffin. He told Vespasian that he had had a vision (some would say, a shrewd political insight) that Vespasian would soon be emperor, and he asked Vespasian to set aside a place in Yavneh (near modern Rehovot) where he could start a small school and study Torah in peace.

Vespasian promised that if the prophesy came true, he would grant ben Zakkai's request. Vespasian became Emperor within a year, and kept his word, allowing the school to be established after the war was over. The school ben Zakkai established at Yavneh became the center of Jewish learning for centuries and replaced Jerusalem as the seat of the Sanhedrin.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yochanan-ben-zakkai

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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

Post by Ethan »

Tacitus 4 described Basilides ' one of the chief men of Egypt' and an 'Oracular force' , however the description in Suetonius 5 is contradicting, referring to that particular Basilides as a 'Freedman' , no mention of that he was Egyptian,.

Suet. Ves. 7 - ' Upon turning round, Basilides (his freedman) appeared before him ' .
( is this not after then events in Suet Ves. 5 )

Tacitus mentions Basilides (Egypt) in Book 2 and the other Basilides in Book 4 ( Carmel) ( are these books in chronological order )
and thus which event took place first. Oracle in Egypt or the Oracle in Carmel?

Another odd thing i found in Suetonius 7

Blind and Lame
Suetonius Ves. 7 ' A poor man who was blind, and another who was lame, came both together before him, when he was seated on the tribunal, imploring him to heal them ' ( this event is not mentioned in Tacitus)

Matthew 21:14 ' The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them '

Blind and Lame pared together in the same order in both Matthew and Suetonius , cliche.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Re: Could Basilides be Josephus?

Post by Secret Alias »

The healing narrative with respect to Vespasian has long been noted to be quite similar to the spitting healing narrative only found in Mark. It has been argued (among people who discuss these things seriously) that a relationship might exist between Mark's narrative and Vespasian's actions). The healing narrative is in both Tacitus and Suetonius https://vridar.org/2011/07/12/jesus-out ... e-emperor/
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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