Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

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Secret Alias
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 pm

A worthwhile discussion of the difficulties with Lam 4:7 https://books.google.com/books?id=5bwdA ... B8&f=false
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:56 pm

I for one have long argued that the core text to Adv Marc 4 is older than the synoptic gospels and led to the development of Luke. In other words arguments from the source text shaped the development of Luke as an anti-Marcionite gospel. The reason for this is that Tertullian often sounds like he's making arguments up in his head which later appear in Luke; he doesn't seem to be citing the passages in Luke as passages in Luke or any gospel.
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:58 pm

The passage in Tertullian is strange because the author seems to make two different arguments for the origin of the term Nazarenes:
According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance. But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod
Explanation 1: the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance.

Explanation 2: But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:01 pm

I think the bit from Matthew 2:20 is one of many arguments which suggest the original author used a gospel harmony. The original argument - like many of the arguments - was part of a commentary on the 'true gospel' (the gospel harmony) where Marcion may have incidentally referenced or not referenced at all. In the ur-text Justin or the original author simply makes reference to Jesus being born in Nazareth and his escape to Egypt were prophesied in the scriptures:
According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes ... But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod.c My reason for not leaving this out is that Marcion's Christ ought by rights to have forsworn all association even with the places frequented by the Creator's Christ, since he had all those towns of Judaea, which were not in the same way conveyed over to the Creator's Christ by the prophets
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by spin » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:07 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:58 pm
According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance. But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod
Try again with a serious translation
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:08 pm

I was just copying and pasting Evans's translation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:10 pm

Nazaraeus vocari habebat secundum prophetiam Christus creatoris. Unde et ipso nomine nos Iudaei Nazarenos appellant per eum. Nam et sumus de quibus scriptum est: Nazaraei exalbati sunt super nivem, qui scilicet retro luridati delinquentiae maculis et nigrati ignorantiae tenebris. Christo autem appellatio Nazaraei competitura erat ex infantiae latebris, ad quas1 apud Nazareth descendit, vitando Archelaum filium Herodis. [2] Hoc propterea non omisi, quia Christum Marcionis oportuerat omne commercium eierasse etiam locorum familiarium Christi creatoris, habentem tanta Iudaeae oppida non ita Christo creatoris per prophetas emancipata.2 Ceterum prophetarum erit Christus ubicunque secundum prophetas invenitur. Et tamen apud Nazareth. quoque nihil novi notatur praedicasse, dum alio, merito3 unius proverbii, eiectus refertur. Hic primum manus ei iniectas animadvertens necesse habeo iam de substantia eius corporali praefinire, quod non possit phantasma credi qui contactum et quidem violentia plenum detentus et captus et ad praecipitium usque protractus admiserit.
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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:12 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:45 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm
.
The Hebrew Bible has "Her princes were purer than snow ..." - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3204.htm

and 'Lam 4: 7 (LXX)' has "they were cleansed by the snow ... " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/lam ... orr_801007

So, Tertullian either used a NT version of Lamentations, or that phraseology -'Her Nazirites [Nazaraei] were whiter than snow'- made it's way into the NT version.
I think the translations are confusing you. The Hebrew has נְזִירֶ֙יהָ; the LXX (Old Greek) has ναζιραῖοι. Those are the words in question: the ones generally transliterated as "Nazirite" or "Nazoraean" or whatnot.
spin wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm
.
The Hebrew Bible has "Her princes were purer than snow ..." - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3204.htm
Look at the Hebrew underlying the translation "princes": NZYRYH.
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm
and 'Lam 4: 7 (LXX)' has "they were cleansed by the snow ... " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/lam ... orr_801007
ναζιραιοι is visible in the Greek here.
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm
So, Tertullian either used a NT version of Lamentations, or that phraseology -'Her Nazirites [Nazaraei] were whiter than snow'- made it's way into the NT version.
Cheers. I did see ναζιραῖοι, and had searched for variations of it, but, not knowing it ...

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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:21 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:56 pm

I for one have long argued that the core text to Adv Marc 4 is older than the synoptic gospels and led to the development of Luke. In other words arguments from the source text shaped the development of Luke as an anti-Marcionite gospel. The reason for this is that Tertullian often sounds like he's making arguments [up in his head] which later appear in Luke; he doesn't seem to be citing the passages in Luke as passages in Luke or any gospel.
.
I wonder if that has happened a lot more than has been previously recognised.

I'm also intrigued to have found out that midrash aggadah and midrash halacha were mostly compiled or edited in or from the mid 1st century AD/CE, and that Rabbi Akiva and his followers were key figures in that. (see - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 157#p77157).

eta: How much were various Apostolic or Patristic Fathers doing midrash?

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Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii

Post by spin » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:00 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:08 pm
I was just copying and pasting Evans's translation.
Nazaraeus is what Latin uses for Nazirite. That as I said earlier is underlined by the citation of Lam 4:7.
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