Re: Matt 2:23 and Tertullian’s 'Adv. Marc.' IV.viii
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 pm
A worthwhile discussion of the difficulties with Lam 4:7 https://books.google.com/books?id=5bwdA ... B8&f=false
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Explanation 1: the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance.According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance. But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod
According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes ... But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod.c My reason for not leaving this out is that Marcion's Christ ought by rights to have forsworn all association even with the places frequented by the Creator's Christ, since he had all those towns of Judaea, which were not in the same way conveyed over to the Creator's Christ by the prophets
Try again with a serious translationSecret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:58 pmAccording to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene.a For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance. But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:45 pmI think the translations are confusing you. The Hebrew has נְזִירֶ֙יהָ; the LXX (Old Greek) has ναζιραῖοι. Those are the words in question: the ones generally transliterated as "Nazirite" or "Nazoraean" or whatnot.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm .
The Hebrew Bible has "Her princes were purer than snow ..." - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3204.htm
and 'Lam 4: 7 (LXX)' has "they were cleansed by the snow ... " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/lam ... orr_801007
So, Tertullian either used a NT version of Lamentations, or that phraseology -'Her Nazirites [Nazaraei] were whiter than snow'- made it's way into the NT version.
Cheers. I did see ναζιραῖοι, and had searched for variations of it, but, not knowing it ...spin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 pmLook at the Hebrew underlying the translation "princes": NZYRYH.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pm .
The Hebrew Bible has "Her princes were purer than snow ..." - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3204.htm
ναζιραιοι is visible in the Greek here.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:51 pmand 'Lam 4: 7 (LXX)' has "they were cleansed by the snow ... " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/lam ... orr_801007
I wonder if that has happened a lot more than has been previously recognised.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:56 pm
I for one have long argued that the core text to Adv Marc 4 is older than the synoptic gospels and led to the development of Luke. In other words arguments from the source text shaped the development of Luke as an anti-Marcionite gospel. The reason for this is that Tertullian often sounds like he's making arguments [up in his head] which later appear in Luke; he doesn't seem to be citing the passages in Luke as passages in Luke or any gospel.
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Nazaraeus is what Latin uses for Nazirite. That as I said earlier is underlined by the citation of Lam 4:7.