Was John imprisoned not in Machaerus but... ...in the Hell???

[Giuseppe]

So Irenaeus reported a famous marcionite myth:

Salvation will be the attainment only of those souls which had learned his doctrine; while the body, as having been taken from the earth, is incapable of sharing in salvation. In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth,--that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

http://torahofyeshuah.blogspot.it/2015/ ... eus-1.html

In Luke there is the famous episode about Jesus questioned by the disciples of John.

17 This news about Jesus spread through all Judea and into all the places around there.
18 John’s followers told him about all these things. He called for two of his followers 19 and sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the One who is to come, or should we wait for someone else?”
20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you with this question: ‘Are you the One who is to come, or should we wait for someone else?’”
21 At that time, Jesus healed many people of their sicknesses, diseases, and evil spirits, and he gave sight to many blind people. 22 Then Jesus answered John’s followers, “Go tell John what you saw and heard here. The blind can see, the crippled can walk, and people with skin diseases are healed. The deaf can hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is preached to the poor. 23 Those who do not stumble in their faith because of me are blessed!”

(Luke 7:17-23)

But note that in Luke (and Mcn?) it is not specified that John is in prison when he sent the his disciples to question Jesus.

It is Matthew that specifies that John is in prison and therefore he couldn't ask directly Jesus.

I am inclined to think that John the Baptist was not in an earthly prison when he questioned Jesus in Mcn.

And probably John questioned directly Jesus in Mcn, without the help of the his presumed disciples.


This because it was Jesus who went to the place where John was held prisoner, with all the other prophets: in the Ades.

This has surely implications about the historicity of the imprisonement of John in Machaerus. Was it a real historical imprisonement witnessed by Josephus? Or was it the deliberate anti-marcionite euhemerization by the proto-catholics to hide the fact that the real prison of John was the Sheol of the Creator?

From the other hand, I have no interest in denying tout court the historicity of John the Baptist, since I think that he was inserted in the Earliest Gospel to date the descending of Jesus somewhere in the real History (and who would be a better witness of the earthly Jesus than someone who baptized so many anonymous Jews?)

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

But note that in Luke (and Mcn?) it is not specified that John is in prison when he sent the his disciples to question Jesus.

But it seems it's in Luke 3:20

(Herod) added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.

[Giuseppe]

But it seems it's in Luke 3:20

(Herod) added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.

True, but not when John sent his disciples to Jesus (differently from Matthew).

[Giuseppe]

If John was in the Sheol, then who placed him there? The Demiurge.

If John was in an earthly prison, then who placed him there? The King Herod.

Is Herod allegory of the Demiurge in the Earliest Gospel?


In whiletime I see another difference between Matthew and Luke: the latter specifies WHERE the miracles of Jesus happen, differently from Matthew.

Matthew 11:4-5
4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”


Luke 7:22-23:

Then Jesus answered John’s followers, “Go tell John what you saw and heard here. The blind can see, the crippled can walk, and people with skin diseases are healed. The deaf can hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is preached to the poor. 23 Those who do not stumble in their faith because of me are blessed!”

Therefore the physical distance between the place where there is Jesus and the place where there is John is surprisingly more marked in Luke than in Matthew.

[Giuseppe]

In the apology of Tertullian, even he is moved to concede that John was deprived of something by the Creator. For Tertullian, John was deprived of the profetic gift, ''being now an ordinary man, and only one of the many''. But the Marcionite John was deprived of the his same life, since he is now in the ''prison'' of the Sheol:

But John is offended(9) when he hears of the miracles of Christ, as of an alien god.(10) Well, I on my side(11) will first explain the reason of his offence, that I may the more easily explode the scandal(12) of our heretic. Now, that the very Lord Himself of all might, the Word and Spirit of the Father,(13) was operating and preaching on earth, it was necessary that the portion of the Holy Spirit which, in the form of the prophetic gift,(14) had been through John preparing the ways of the Lord, should now depart from John,(15) and return back again of course to the Lord, as to its all-embracing original.(16) Therefore John, being now an ordinary person, and only one of the many,(17) was offended indeed as a man, but not because he expected or thought of another Christ as teaching or doing nothing new, for he was not even expecting such a one.

http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Tert4.html#AM183 (my bold)

But note what it is missing from the our Gospels: the information that the miracles described in answer to the disciples of John are ''miracles of Christ'', i.e. made by Christ.

Therefore in the Earliest Gospel the words of Jesus are not purely descriptive (''see the miracles and learn!'') but could be more explicit about himself (''see my miracles and learn!'').

Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard;
how I make the blind see,
I make the lepers cleansed,
I make the dead raised,

23 And blessed is he, if he [John] shall not be offended in me.

In addition, there were no miracles about lame, poor and deaf people (the latter were derived from the OT).

[Giuseppe]

A parallel question raises itself: if John was in the Sheol, the sending of the his disciples was a natural consequence of the euhemerization of the Sheol in an earthly prison, or was it the spiritual communication between the Risen John and the believers in the his Resurrection? In this latter case we would have trace of not one, but of two rival Christs.

[Giuseppe]

If John and Jesus were two rival Christs, then John was the presumed Christ of the Creator, while Jesus was the Christ of the alien god.

This would explain the Gnostic hate against John the Baptist in the later tradition.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

But it seems it's in Luke 3:20

(Herod) added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.

True, but not when John sent his disciples to Jesus (differently from Matthew).

It seems that the Marcionite Megetius thought that John was in prison

... Adamantius Dialogue, according to Dieter T. Roth (pages 364-365): 50,12–14 (1.26)— . . . [Meg.] ἀκούσας [John] γὰρ ἐν τῷ δεσμωτηρίῳ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἔπεμψε τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγων σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἕτερον προσδοκῶμεν; . . . | Cum audisset in carcere positus opera Christi, mittens duos ex discipulis suis ad eum dicens: Tu es qui venturus es, an alium expectamus? | 50, 15–16 (1.26)—[Ad.] Εἰ περὶ Χριστοῦ ἐπυνθάνετο Ἰωάννης, ἔλεξεν σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστός· φάσκει γάρ σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἕτερον προσδοκῶμεν; . . . | Si de Christo interrogaret Iohannes, dixisset utique: Tu es Christus? Nunc autem dicit: Tu es qui venturus es? ...

[Giuseppe]

It seems that the Marcionite Megetius thought that John was in prison

Was he too late?
Was John's Sheol euhemerized in the whiletime?
Is really necessary for the my case the presence of 'prison' in the Gospel of Luke/Mcn?

My case is based on the many parallelisms found between the marcionite legend about the prophets in the Sheol reported by Irenaeus and the Gospel episode about the questions by John's disciples.

Have you another (possibly better) alternative to explain the episode?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
I'm not sure what you mean with „many parallelisms“. You started with a tale of Anti-Marcionite propaganda by Irenaeus. Without further evidence I'm not inclined to think that Marcion thought that Cain and the Sodomites were saved.

More importantly, I'm not sure Marcion thought that Jesus preached in hell. Is there any argument independently from Irenaeus in favor of such a view? I simply do not know it, but I would rate it as possible. But for a serious discussion we should have at least a bit evidence for that.