Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:42 pm

.
We have exponents of each possible view :)

The main argument for denying a physical Davidic descent seems to be Mark 12:35-37. Stefan's main argument for a physical Davidic descent seems to be that Mark must be part of a broader stream of christological views which saw Jesus as a son of David, but not the resurrected Christ. That may be not incompatible with Mark 12:35-37, but seems to „separate Jesus from Christ“ (?).

It would be interesting to know what Ben is thinking at the moment and how we can move forward.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:09 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:42 pm
We have exponents of each possible view :)
And good arguments on all sides....
The main argument for denying a physical Davidic descent seems to be Mark 12:35-37. Stefan's main argument for a physical Davidic descent seems to be that Mark must be part of a broader stream of christological views which saw Jesus as a son of David, but not the resurrected Christ. That may be not incompatible with Mark 12:35-37, but seems to „separate Jesus from Christ“ (?).
I am not sure that Mark separates Jesus from Christ. Irenaeus writes about certain adoptionists who apparently did, and it is tempting to read Mark in that light, but I do not think Mark ever actually makes that move. What he separates is Jesus from the spirit:

Irenaeus' adoptionists: Jesus (earthly being) + Christ (heavenly being) = Jesus Christ (composite being).
Mark's gospel: Jesus (earthly being) + spirit (heavenly being) = Christ (composite being).

Maybe this is just a semantic observation, but I like to keep things straight so that I can recognize patterns elsewhere.
It would be interesting to know what Ben is thinking at the moment and how we can move forward.
I wish I could say that I am sure of something right now, but alas.... :D

Bernard makes some good points, but I do not tend to think that Jesus responding only on the second "Jesus son of David" from Bartimaeus means what Bernard thinks it means. For one thing, it is not the second time; the number of times is not actually counted, and the imperfect verb tense implies continued action; therefore, the beggar may have shouted it a dozen times or more before being noticed. And that is what I think is actually going on: it takes time for him to be noticed. Jesus has already shown us that he does not necessarily always know what is happening in a crowd:

Mark 5.30: 30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My garments?"

(Or, if he knows, he pretends not to!)

And we have already seen someone having to persist in order to get the desired outcome from Jesus:

Mark 7.26-27: 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him [imperfect tense, jas as in Mark 10.48] to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs."

Not to mention people trying to prevent supplicants from approaching Jesus:

Mark 10.13: 13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.

So I suspect that Bartimaeus having to call out multiple times, over and against the wishes of the crowd, is just another example of this kind of motif. I doubt Mark is trying to clue the reader in to Jesus not recognizing himself in the designation "Jesus, son of David."

However, the wording of Mark 12.35 does at first glance seem to lean in the direction of Jesus not being the son of David: "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?" On the other hand, as you (Kunigunde) have pointed out, the question of the disciples in Mark 9.11 takes the same form, and surely no doubt is intended on the matter of whether Elijah comes first, since Jesus immediately acknowledges that Elijah does come first (verse 12).

Stefan's reconstruction carries great explanatory value, as does Joe's on another thread, and would unite Mark with many passages in Paul (whether Paul himself wrote them or not!). It would also go right along with Jesus being fleshly until the spirit enters him at the baptism, and with the observation that resurrected and thus immortal humans are now like sexless angels. I have to admit that right now I am leaning in Stefan's direction. That may certainly change, and I am still looking into things.

Another possible line of evidence to pursue would be the prayers in the Didache; it is probably common knowledge by now that I, like Alan Garrow, consider the bulk of the Didache to be very, very early: certainly earlier than Matthew and possibly earlier than Mark. If a Davidic lineage was assumed early in Christian thought for Jesus, then I am not sure that Mark has done enough to contradict it. His laconic, indirect treatment of the entire question does not make a good counterargument to a Davidic descent, when such counterarguments could easily have been made plain and obvious.

What do you think, Kunigunde?
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:30 pm

to Ben,
If a Davidic lineage was assumed early in Christian thought for Jesus,
The Didache does not say Jesus is a descendant of David or king.
At Ch. 10, we have "hosanna to the God of David", not, as in gMatthew, "hosanna to the Son of David".
Note: "God of David" appears also in 2Ki 20:5, 2Ch 21:12, 34:3 & Isa 38:5
For one thing, it is not the second time; the number of times is not actually counted, and the imperfect verb tense implies continued action; therefore, the beggar may have shouted it a dozen times or more before being noticed. And that is what I think is actually going on: it takes time for him to be noticed.
I also noticed the beggar calls Jesus more than twice, according to the text. And how many times someone calling Jesus, Son of David would need to get Jesus' attention, if that Jesus already accepted himself to be considered Son of David?
Jesus has already shown us that he does not necessarily always know what is happening in a crowd:
Your examples do not have Jesus being called Jesus something and not immediately responding. I think they are not relevant for the issue.
Bartimaeus having to call out multiple times, over and against the wishes of the crowd,
Maybe, in Mark's mind, the crowd thinks that calling Jesus, Son of David, was inappropriate and even dangerous (for Jesus, as suggesting kingly ambition).
If a Davidic lineage was assumed early in Christian thought for Jesus, then I am not sure that Mark has done enough to contradict it. His laconic, indirect treatment of the entire question does not make a good counterargument to a Davidic descent,
"Mark" used an OT passage (as authority) to make his point. So that's why he is not as clear-cut on the topic as you would expect. And I think your translation from the NASB "so in what sense" is misleading, maybe even wrong.

If we also consider "Barnabas" interpretation of the same OT passage and the fact "Mark" is "embarrassed" by Jesus being seen as king, I think that so-called laconic passage indicates "Mark" did not want Christ to be considered a descendant of David.

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:30 pm
to Ben,
If a Davidic lineage was assumed early in Christian thought for Jesus,
The Didache does not say Jesus is a descendant of David or king.
Not explicitly, no. But my view (and that of many others) is that the imagery in chapter 9 presumes that David is supposed to be the ancestor of the Messiah. You quote from chapter 10:
At Ch. 10, we have "hosanna to the God of David", not, as in gMatthew, "hosanna to the Son of David".
Note: "God of David" appears also in 2Ki 20:5, 2Ch 21:12, 34:3 & Isa 38:5
But that is not the passage in question for me.
I also noticed the beggar calls Jesus more than twice, according to the text. And how many times someone calling Jesus, Son of David would need to get Jesus' attention, if that Jesus already accepted himself to be considered Son of David?
Possibly dozens if Jesus cannot hear him over the crowd.
"Mark" used an OT passage (as authority) to make his point. So that's why he is not as clear-cut on the topic as you would expect. And I think your translation from the NASB "so in what sense" is misleading, maybe even wrong.
Well, I did not rely on the translation, of course, since I admitted outright that, at first blush, the wording seems to counter Jesus being the son of David.
If we also consider "Barnabas" interpretation of the same OT passage and the fact "Mark" is "embarrassed" by Jesus being seen as king, I think that so-called laconic passage indicates "Mark" did not want Christ to be considered a descendant of David.
You make a good point with Barnabas. It is definitely something to consider.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:09 pm

to Ben,
Not explicitly, no. But my view (and that of many others) is that the imagery in chapter 9 presumes that David is supposed to be the ancestor of the Messiah.
I do not see anything in Ch. 9 where that can be presumed. Can you explain why do you see that presumption of yours?
Possibly dozens if Jesus cannot hear him over the crowd.
The crowd could hear him, but not Jesus? Even if that beggar is sitting by the road side.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:25 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:09 pm
to Ben,
Not explicitly, no. But my view (and that of many others) is that the imagery in chapter 9 presumes that David is supposed to be the ancestor of the Messiah.
I do not see anything in Ch. 9 where that can be presumed. Can you explain why to you see that presumption of yours?
I will try to get back to this.
Possibly dozens if Jesus cannot hear him over the crowd.
The crowd could hear him, but not Jesus? Even if that beggar is sitting by the road side.
Sure. Of course. Not the whole crowd; just those closest to him. (Not sure what the objection is here. This seems obvious.)
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iskander
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by iskander » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:34 am

iskander wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:54 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:30 am
iskander wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Mark says nothing about the family of Jesus.
What do you mean? What about Mark 3? Mark 6:3?
The family is mentioned but no information about the family is given . It is a plain working family , nothing more is written about them.
Jesus is continually in serious conflict with the ' management' of the second temple religious establishment in the narrative of Mark. It is impossible to understand this conflict if one makes Jesus the son of David. Accepting the role of ' son of David' would task the Messiah with replicating the kingdom of David under the guidance of a new breed of prophets.


Jesus as a prince of the royal blood, under the guidance of the authority he despised, is unacceptable to Mark .And Mark makes his rejection very clear.

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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:12 am

to Ben,
Sure. Of course. Not the whole crowd; just those closest to him. (Not sure what the objection is here. This seems obvious.)
So it would have taken many times for the beggar to shout "Jesus, Son of David" and "Son of David" for Jesus to hear him. BTW, "Mark" did not say that Jesus finally hears the beggar, but that Jesus eventually stops and calls for the beggar to come.

Cordially, Bernard
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John2
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by John2 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:32 am

Bernard wrote in response to Ben re: a Davidic Messiah in Didache 9:
I do not see anything in Ch. 9 where that can be presumed. Can you explain why to you see that presumption of yours?
I gather it is this part of Did. 9:
And concerning the Eucharist, hold Eucharist thus: First concerning the Cup, "We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the Holy Vine of David thy child, which, thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy child; to thee be glory for ever."
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:42 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:12 am
to Ben,
Sure. Of course. Not the whole crowd; just those closest to him. (Not sure what the objection is here. This seems obvious.)
So it would have taken many times for the beggar to shout "Jesus, Son of David" and "Son of David" for Jesus to hear him. BTW, "Mark" did not say that Jesus finally hears the beggar, but that Jesus eventually stops and calls for the beggar to come.
Nor does Mark say that Jesus failed to recognize the appellation as applying to him. Mark does not say either way. We are having to interpret. I just do not think that Mark meant to say anything so specific about the appellation itself by the multiple times the beggar had to call him. On the other hand, to let the beggar say it without correcting it seems somewhat important.
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