Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

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John2
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote;
Nor does Mark say that Jesus failed to recognize the appellation [son of David] as applying to him. Mark does not say either way. We are having to interpret.
I'm wondering if this is the case as well in Mk. 10:17-18 re: Jesus' divinity:
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
I'm starting to see this as Jesus not denying that he was God but rather hinting that he is. This would be in keeping with what I now see -thanks to Boyarin- is the backbone of Christianity, i.e., Daniel's divine/angelic "son of man," and it seems to fit the context of the chapter as well, since it goes to say in 10:26-30:
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:09 pmWhat do you think, Kunigunde?
I'm really interested in this thread to understand more about the relationship between Mark's Jesus and Mark's David and I think there is a lot to puzzle over and to ask. But at the moment my answers to the questions of the OP would be the following:

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 amDid Mark regard Jesus as a physical descendant of David?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... as a spiritual descendant of David?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... as both?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... or as neither?
No.

I think Mark did regard Jesus Christ as the Lord of David and that was Mark's only point, all what he wished to say. And there's no way to come around and to get an answer to the question whether and in which sense Jesus was the son of David.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:51 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:09 pmWhat do you think, Kunigunde?
I'm really interested in this thread to understand more about the relationship between Mark's Jesus and Mark's David and I think there is a lot to puzzle over and to ask. But at the moment my answers to the questions of the OP would be the following:

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 amDid Mark regard Jesus as a physical descendant of David?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... as a spiritual descendant of David?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... as both?
No.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am... or as neither?
No.

I think Mark did regard Jesus Christ as the Lord of David and that was Mark's only point, all what he wished to say. And there's no way to come around and to get an answer to the question whether and in which sense Jesus was the son of David.
Well, I admit, that would explain why Mark is not easy to interpret on that very point.
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John2
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by John2 »

I know you guys are talking about David, but since I'm in the pro-Davidic camp and see it as being entwined with Daniel's divine "son of man," I thought I'd point out something else that makes me think Jesus is divine in Mark:

2:6-12:
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
As Boyarin notes, this "authority" (ἐξουσία) is the same word that Daniel uses for the authority that is given to the "son of man" in the LXX:

Dan. 7:14:
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:53 pm I know you guys are talking about David, but since I'm in the pro-Davidic camp and see it as being entwined with Daniel's divine "son of man," I thought I'd point out something else that makes me think Jesus is divine in Mark:

2:6-12:
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
As Boyarin notes, this "authority" (ἐξουσία) is the same word that Daniel uses for the authority that is given to the "son of man" in the LXX....
The Danielic connection is quite plausible, but my view is that this part of the pericope is a later addition to the story: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2549&p=57904#p57904.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by outhouse »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am Is Jesus deliberately dissociating his own Messiahship from physical Davidic descent? Or is this a matter of Jesus forcing the crowds to realize that the Messiah is more than just the descendant of David, that he is also Lord in some real sense? Other instances of Jesus being called the son of David in the gospel go unchallenged:



Ben.
It is the authors combatting Jewish traditions he was not of Davidic descent. Much of the text was written in this rhetorical form fighting not only competing versions, but heretical views as well.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by outhouse »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:51 pm
And there's no way to come around and to get an answer to the question whether and in which sense Jesus was the son of David.
The authors were marrying the OT textual traditions found valuable, to show without question he was the messiah as described in the previous text.

If your saying we cannot know the context, I disagree. They took and stole the previous context of lineage.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

outhouse wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:10 pm
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:51 pm And there's no way to come around and to get an answer to the question whether and in which sense Jesus was the son of David.
The authors were marrying the OT textual traditions found valuable, to show without question he was the messiah as described in the previous text.

If your saying we cannot know the context, I disagree. They took and stole the previous context of lineage.
I agree that we know the context. imho the context is explicitely mentioned in GMark
Mark 12:35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

I would disagree that Mark adopt the view of the context as his own. Mark's Jesus explicitly questioned the older view.
Mark 12:37 David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?

My only point was that I think GMark is with regard to the relationship between Jesus and David not about what Jesus is (possibly a "son of David"), but about how we should see Jesus (as the "Lord"). I think Mark would say: Perhaps Jesus was a descendant of David, but that plays absolutely no role and is completely misleading. (Paul: "every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord")
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:42 pmIt would be interesting to know what Ben is thinking at the moment and how we can move forward.
In the stead of what I wrote before, there is another possibility that has occurred to me early and often. I hesitate to present it here because it does not reach my customarily desired level of evidentiary proof. But this is all a work in progress anyway, so perfectionism be damned for the time being....

The strength of the position that Jesus is not the son of David seems to be the discussion of Psalm 110.1 (lord of David versus son of David). The strength of the position that Jesus is the son of David seems to be the nonchalant way in which the concept is introduced by Bartimaeus and the fact that Jesus does nothing to contradict him; well, this and the fact that Christ = son of David is such an easy, common equation to make.

On the other hand, the Bartimaeus episode does not explicitly state that Jesus is the son of David, nor does the Psalm episode explicitly deny it. It is as if both passages are operating with certain assumptions in place that the author does not feel he has to spell out for his readers; the catch is that the assumption behind the one passage and the assumption behind the other are not the same. This implies to me the following chain of events:

1A. Somebody tells the Bartimaeus story and has Bartimaeus call Jesus the son of David because that is what the storyteller thinks, who has no reason to make clear what is obvious to him (that is, that Jesus is the descendant of David). (Matthew and Luke agree with this approach.)
1B. Somebody else recounts the Psalm 110 paradox and has Jesus mitigate the Davidic sonship of the Messiah because that is what the recounter thinks (that is, that Jesus is not his descendant), who has no reason to make clear what is obvious to him. (The epistle of Barnabas agrees with this approach.)
2. "Mark" (the author/redactor/editor/compiler of the gospel) puts both episodes in his gospel, not necessarily realizing that their underlying assumptions conflict. Just as modern adherents to either view can justify both stories in the same gospel, so too can Mark. If I had to guess his own stance, it would either be that he does not care (as you have suggested, Kunigunde) or that he thought of Jesus as the son of David and considered the Psalm 110 paradox as simply making clear that Jesus is Lord, too.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by iskander »

Napoleon wanted to be the Son of Charlemagne and he was accepted by the temple.
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Jesus would not
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