It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:50 pm

spin wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:27 pm
Great exposition, Ben C! I was too lazy for that work ATM. (Recolored for focus…)
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:24 am
So maybe the story started out as a core of Mark 6.1-2, 6b = Mark 1.21-22, 27b, 28. As it circulated, in one stream of tradition it picked up the bit about Jesus' family (Mark 6.3-6a), while in another it picked up an exorcism (Mark 1.23-27a, 27c). Also, in one stream the venue was specified as Nazareth, while in the other it was specified as Capernaum:

Mark 1.21-28: 21 They go into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. 22 They were astonished at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. 23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 saying, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are — the Holy One of God!" 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" 26 Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him. 27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, "What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him." 28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.

Mark 6.1-6: 1 Jesus… comes into His hometown; and His disciples follow Him. 2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household." 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

[The "such miracles as these..." is replaced in the first version by the sandwich story of the unclean spirit, but dealt with by the reference to his authority. (Added)]
The Marcan redactional addition in 1:29 ("and immediately having gone out of the synagogue") awkwardly hooks the reworked passage (ending with news spreading) into the fabric of the gospel.

So, looking at the major content difference in the two versions of what appears to be the same brief story, we find the location stands out: his hometown/Capernaum. It is rather unlikely that someone would go from a named location to one unnamed. That means Capernaum is a likely addition, an addition that makes no sense if Nazareth were already in the tradition. This development is prior to the entry of Nazareth to the tradition.
That all makes sense, including about Mark 1.29.
(I just have to find the most economical way of including the fact into The Article.)
Do you mean The Tome? The Opus? The Codex? It is sounding rather longish. :)
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spin
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by spin » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:26 pm

It's now 14k words and my partner says I should split it up. But as it will be such a hotbutton topic I've to cover all my bases together. Partner then says expand it and turn it into a book, so I say these 14k words have taken several years, how long will another 16k take?
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Steven Avery
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:00 pm

spin wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Steven Avery wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:41 am
spin wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 am
(In fact 2:1 tells us that Jesus had his home there.)
More likely "the house of Simon and Andrew, where he was before, and where he used to be when in Capernaum." - John Gill
Lots of pundits have to fabricate stuff to deal with the fact the text specifically says Jesus was at home in Capernaum.
The text does not say Jesus had a home in Capernaum, it says he was at the house in Capernaum, not his house.

And the house of Simon and Andrew fits perfectly with:

Mark 1:21 (AV)
And they went into Capernaum;
and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 1:29
And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue,
they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

Mark 2:1
And again he entered into Capernaum, after some days;
and it was noised that he was in the house.


This is the simple and clear and consistent understanding.

Steven Avery

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spin
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by spin » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:02 pm

Steven Avery wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:00 pm
spin wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Steven Avery wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:41 am
spin wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 am
(In fact 2:1 tells us that Jesus had his home there.)
More likely "the house of Simon and Andrew, where he was before, and where he used to be when in Capernaum." - John Gill
Lots of pundits have to fabricate stuff to deal with the fact the text specifically says Jesus was at home in Capernaum.
The text does not say Jesus had a home in Capernaum, it says he was at the house in Capernaum, not his house.
Sorry, Steven, the Greek idiom εν οικω is quite clear, = "at home", note no "his" (see 1 Cor 11:34). (When you comment on this sort of issue, you must look at the Greek.)
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Steven Avery
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the critical text corruption spins you around again

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:41 pm

Nahh, I can be pretty sure the learned men know the Greek better than you OR it is a minority textual corruption that you wrongly think is original.

And checking, you are following the corruption text, which will tend to mess up many things. Rather than the ultra-minority corruption I'm following the text that is based on probably 95%+ of the Greek mss, including many uncials. Many years, many times, I have encouraged you to use the pure Bible.

Laparola - http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php ... 8&rif2=2:1
ἐν οἴκῳ] p88 ‭א B D L W Θ Σ 33 571 892 1071 pc WH
εἰς οἴκον] A C Γ Δ Π Φ 090 0130 f1 f13 22 28 157 330 543 565 579 Byz ς

And note that they rig the data presentation as well, and tend to omit many uncials that have the true text.

That little Byz represents 1500+ mss.

And the Latin supports "the house" as well. Most likely the Syriac, but I have not checked. They tend to omit Byz supports in the apparatuses in order to trick the dupes.

Steven

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spin
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Re: the critical text corruption spins you around again

Post by spin » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:57 pm

.....
Last edited by spin on Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steven Avery
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Re: the critical text corruption spins you around again

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:02 pm

Putting aside the whining Critical Text ultra-minority blah-blah:
spin wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:57 pm
Both Greek variants you list above show the idiom translatable as "at home".
The proper translation is "in the house", as in all the TR editions, which in context is the house just referenced.

Mark 1:21 (AV)
And they went into Capernaum;
and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 1:29
And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue,
they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.


You fully know this, yet you use the parsing "translatable", meaning a poor translation is possible and you will try to fake your way through. You are spinning around on the Bible text, as usual.

You should at least have the integrity to acknowledge that your position on Jesus having a home in Capernaum is dependent on the ultra-minority Critical Text. Then we would agree, and move on.

And stop trying to play stupid. You know that the Latin has a preposition that can say "his house".

Steven

iskander
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by iskander » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:24 am

Mark 1 :29 so then, when they had gone out of the synagogue , they went into the house of Simon and Andrew with James and John ( a)
a) B D W Θ f et al. have singular verbal forms in this sentence. Although Turner's claim that the usage reflects the point of view of an eyewitness is untenable, he was correct in observing that the shift from an impersonal plural to the singular is characteristic of Mark's style ( but note that the opposite shist shift is more likely to be original in 3:20; see below).
The change to singular forms here was made to increase the focus on Jesus and to give a clearer antecedent for αὐτῷ (him) in v. 30; the parallel in Matt 8:14 and Luke 4:38 may also have had an influence. See Turner, " Marcan Usage" 26(1925) 225-31( Elliot, Language and Style,36-42; Turner , "Textual Commentary"155. See also Metzger, Textual Commentary, 64.
Mark: A Commentary (Hermeneia: A Critical & Historical Commentary on the Bible) Hardcover – 21 Dec 2007
by Adela Yarbro Collins (Author), Harold W. Attridge (Editor)
Fortress Press, U.S. (21 Dec. 2007
ISBN-13: 978-0800660789
Page 174

Steven Avery
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by Steven Avery » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:01 am

iskander
"and to give a clearer antecedent for αὐτῷ (him) in v. 30" - which was crystal clear anyway

Mark 1:25
And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
Mark 1:28
And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.

=================

The simple truth is that the singular is simply another ultra-minority corruption.

And in the verse 29 the singular is another ultra-minority corruption that is not even the NA-UBS choice.

Mark 1:29
http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php ... &rif2=1:29

ἐκ τῆς συναγωγῆς ἐξελθόντες ἦλθον] ‭א A C E (F Δ al εἰσῆλθον) G H K L Π 0133 28 33 157 180 597 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1243 1253 1292 1344 1505 1546 1646 (2174 ἦλθεν) Byz (itl) syrh slav goth (Jerome) ς WH

ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῆς συναγωγῆς ἦλθον] 31 435 vg (syrs syrp syrpal καὶ ἦλθον) copbo(pt) geo1

ἐκ τῆς συναγωγῆς ἐξελθὼν ἦλθεν] B (Θ 1424 ἐξελθὼν before ἐκ τῆς) f1 f13 22 205 565 579 700 1242 1342 1365 2148 2427 al (itf) (vgmss) (copbo(pt)) eth geo2

ἐξελθὼν δὲ ἐκ τῆς συναγωγῆς ἦλθεν and omit καὶ εὐθὺς at the beginning] D W (Σ εὐθύς for δέ) 349 517 954 1061 1065 1068 1675 1694 2220 2747 itaur itb itc itd ite itff2 itq itr1 vgmss arm

Even Metzger was right here, albeit for the wrong reasons.
"it is best to follow the majority of MSS that read ἐξελθόντες ἦλθον"

=================

iskander, if you use a modern seminarian commentary, where Vaticanus is the central ms of the ages, you are likely to get burned time and again.

Steven

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spin
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Re: It's all yours (Was about a non-Nazareth indicator)

Post by spin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:24 am

Could the moderatorial powers that be remove the Steven Avery material from this thread. He does not deal with the o.p. and is filling up the thread with his own interests. Perhaps you could collect it into another thread. Thanks.
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