Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by DCHindley »

Bill Kennedy, a Law graduate student, put this paper online:

https://www.academia.edu/35137959/The_M ... s_Examined
This paper argues that Jesus never existed. I [Bill Kennedy, that is] first examine two prominent arguments that purport to establish his existence: accounts of the crucifixion and purported mentions of Jesus by Josephus. I then show why these arguments fail and how much of the material found in the Gospels is derived, not from the supposed events during the time of Jesus, but instead are rehashed stories from Josephus.
Underlining mine.

While I do not share either of his opinions, I thought it was interesting that he as made arguments similar to ones by Frans and others here.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Giuseppe »

Thanks,
DCHindley wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:38 pm ...he as made arguments similar to ones by Franz and others here.
but who is Franz in this forum?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Ulan
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Ulan »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:47 pm Thanks,
DCHindley wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:38 pm ...he as made arguments similar to ones by Franz and others here.
but who is Franz in this forum?
I guess he got "Germanized" ;) . Try the Flemish version of the name.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1 ... _Vermeiren
Secret Alias
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Secret Alias »

Isn't it amazing how masturbatory this forum is? The facts are that no matter how stupid any single member of this group is he/she has likely read more books than 90 percent of the American general public. On top of that the books he/she has read is undoubtedly 'harder' than the books most of the other 10 percent read (= mostly 'light' fiction, autobiographies, books about celebrities). Yet in spite of erudition the majority of our members spend all their time here arguing for 'fixed ideas' that came into their heads likely at the beginning of their knowledge journey. In other words, they had an idea, liked it perhaps after reading one or two books in the field and then they spent the next 20 or 30 years of their lives at forums like this arguing on behalf of this (stupid) idea. Of course the next step is death which means that this stupid idea will die unless - as its only hope - some other miserable wretch takes a fancy for it and spends most of his life in a future forum arguing with his or he last breath in favor of it. Who says that demons or demonic possession isn't real!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:44 pm Isn't it amazing how masturbatory this forum is? The facts are that no matter how stupid any single member of this group is he/she has likely read more books than 90 percent of the American general public. On top of that the books he/she has read is undoubtedly 'harder' than the books most of the other 10 percent read (= mostly 'light' fiction, autobiographies, books about celebrities). Yet in spite of erudition the majority of our members spend all their time here arguing for 'fixed ideas' that came into their heads likely at the beginning of their knowledge journey. In other words, they had an idea, liked it perhaps after reading one or two books in the field and then they spent the next 20 or 30 years of their lives at forums like this arguing on behalf of this (stupid) idea. Of course the next step is death which means that this stupid idea will die unless - as its only hope - some other miserable wretch takes a fancy for it and spends most of his life in a future forum arguing with his or he last breath in favor of it. Who says that demons or demonic possession isn't real!
Secret Wheeler,

Who, pray tell, are you ranting to? Me, the law student, or Frans?

Inquiring minds want to know! :P
Giuseppe
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Giuseppe »

I find interesting what Bill Kennedy observes among the parallels between Jesus ben Ananias and Jesus "called Christ":
"a voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people
."(Josephus,

Wars 6.3.) Remember what Jesus says in Matthew 25:6? He says

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go
ye out to meet him.”
(KJV). Both use the imagery of the bridegroom concerning the end of Jerusalem. The only difference,
miniscule in my view, is that Ben Ananias says that the voice (presumably God’s) is
against the bridegroom
.


The apocalypticism of Jesus ben Ananias is more hard and pessimist against Jerusalem, differently from the Gospel Jesus, who assumes possibly a celestial Jerusalem as new bridegroom.

It seems that this mitigated prediction by the Gospel Jesus is more late than the more pessimist prophecies of a Jesus ben Ananias.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Giuseppe »

The argument of Bill Kennedy in short:

1) Bart Ehrman has to assume a hypothetical oral tradition behind the Earliest Gospel

2) Bart Ehrman has to assume an reliable oral tradition behind the Earliest Gospel

3) Bart Ehrman has to assume that the parallelisms between Jesus ben Ananias and the Gospel Jesus are mere coincidences


4) Bill Kennedy has to assume nothing: the parallels between Jesus Ben Ananias and the Gospel Jesus are simply there.

Therefore, probably Jesus never existed.


Note that for both the Law Graduate and Bart Ehrman:

1) Josephus talked about Jesus but he was based on the hearsay by Christians.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another Mythic Jesus proponent

Post by Giuseppe »

Mark 2:18-22 :

18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

19 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.
Also the prophecy of Jesus ben Ananias is against the bridegroom. Also the death of Jesus ben Ananias allegorizes the fall of Jerusalem, since he is killed in 70 CE by a stone thrown by a Roman soldier. Jesus's death, we are said, allegorizes the fall of Jerusalem, too.

The "bridegroom" seems to be talked of as of the "Son of Man", in the third person. In this sense he is Jesus in what he allegorizes after 40 years after the his presumed events.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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