Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Joseph D. L.
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Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:41 am

IMO verse 11 is quite explicit – and it doesn’t mention the beast: But after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
If we correct for the encryption technique of duplication, a breath of life from God entered him, and he stood up on his feet. Who else but Jesus?
I think this is the result of anachronistic thinking; i.e. presuming that it must be Jesus because the tradition has been so thoroughly instilled into our culture and minds that it can't be anything but. It's similar in thinking that Jesus must be the figure mentioned in verse eight, because who else do we know was crucified and called Lord?

While I do think that many figures in the New Testament can be better accounted for if thought of as one, single figure (just wait until you read what I have to say about Paul and John Mark), in this instance I think that the two witnesses are better understood as two individuals. Indeed that chapter goes out of its way to make that point clear by referencing Zechariah, chapter 4. "Two lampstands", "two olive trees", and two anointed ones before the Lord of the earth.

Now I also think that this could be code for what I am calling the Twin theory, of which I will further elucidate upon in future posts. Suffice it to say I believe this to be the underlying premise of the resurrection. (Essentially, The Prestige. lol)

But insofar as Revelation 11 and its possible connections to the Kitos revolt goes, I believe the two witnesses to be Julian and Pappos, who the beast (Lucius Quietus) had made war on and killed, with their Lord, Lukuas-Andreas, being crucified in the same city they been killed: Lydda. However the crucial point is the two witnesses' assumption into heaven, and which preludes to an event in 118 ad, which effectively created Christianity. (More on that, again, later).
The great fear (φοβος μεγας) in this verse matches with the fear of the disciples after Jesus’ resurrection in Mark 16:8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid (ἐφοβουντο γαρ).
Just to nitpick, but those referred to as fleeing were not the disciples proper. Also, φοβος μεγας is not used in Mark 16:8, and ἐφοβουντο γαρ is not used in Rev 11:11. I'm not saying their isn't a similar theme there, but it appears to be indirect between them.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:53 am

^MrMacSon, I actually find that very relevant.

A few years ago I had thought that the two witnesses were Simon and Jacob, who fought with Rome during the revolt of 48 ad, and were subsequently defeated. The Lord crucified in verse 8 was their father, Judas of Galilee. So I had my relatives of the Lord. My thinking changed when I considered the greater impact that the Kitos revolt had upon Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the Jewish-Roman war only served as fertilizer for Christianity, and is rather overstated in its role as creating the theology.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:54 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:53 am
^MrMacSon, I actually find that very relevant.

... My thinking changed when I considered the greater impact that the Kitos revolt had upon Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the Jewish-Roman war only served as fertilizer for Christianity, and is rather overstated in its role as creating the theology.
Cheers. Yes, I think later events are likely to be as relevant or more relevant than the 1st Jewish-roman War.

Interestingly, I just realised I'd missed the relevance of one comment by Peter also in relation to the time of Trajan

After -
Eusebius quotes an account of the death of Symeon in the reign of Trajan, apparently in response to the Kitos War uprising recorded by Dio Cassius, a rebellion of Jews outside of Judea around 115-117 AD.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.32.1-3 ...

http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html

I had noted Peter had said -
... [Hegesippus] is quoted as saying that jealousy arose because of the election of Symeon among the people who belonged to the family of the Lord (and descendants of David) who comprised the leadership of the church. It is most plausible that the one depicted as being snubbed is one who had some kind of legitimate claim to being elected at all, i.e., Thebuthis, a grandson of Judas (one of the remaining “family of the Lord” in the account above [I think Peter is referring to E.H. bk 3, chap. 201, which he had quoted previously), the brother of James the Just, instead of Symeon, supposedly the ancient son of Clopas, the brother of Joseph. He was one of those who were arrested and hassled by Domitian “when search was made for the descendants of David”, as already quoted.

http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html

1 H.E. bk 3, chap 20 also refers to Domitan and Trajan -


1. “Of the 'family of the Lord' there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh*.
  • This Jude was the brother of James, “the brother of the Lord,” who is mentioned in Jude 1, and is to be distinguished from Jude (Thaddeus-Lebbæus), one of the Twelve, whose name appears in the 'catalogues of Luke' (Luke vi. 14, and Acts i. 13) as the son of James (not his brother, as the A.V. translates: the Greek words are ᾽Ιούδας ᾽Ιακώβου). For a discussion of the relationship of these men to Christ, see above, Bk. I. chap. 12, note 14. Of the son of Jude and father of the young men mentioned in this chapter we know nothing.

2. Information was given that they belonged to the family of David, and they were brought to the Emperor Domitian by the Evocatus [soldier/s who, having served out [their] time, were called upon to do military duty as a volunteer]. For Domitian feared the coming of Christ as Herod also had feared it [lol]. And he asked them if they were descendants of David, and they confessed that they were. Then he asked them how much property they had, or how much money they owned. And both of them answered that they had only nine thousand denarii,722 half of which belonged to each of them;

[there is no 3]

4. and this property did not consist of silver, but of a piece of land which contained only thirty-nine acres, and from which they raised their taxes 723 and supported themselves by their own labor.” 724

5. Then they showed their hands, exhibiting the hardness of their bodies and the callousness produced upon their hands by continuous toil as evidence of their own labor.

6. And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.

7. Upon hearing this, Domitian did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the persecution of the Church.

8. But when they were released they ruled the churches because they were witnesses 725 and were also relatives of the Lord. 726 And peace being established, they lived until the time of Trajan. These things are related by Hegesippus.

9. Tertullian also has mentioned Domitian in the following words [Apol. chap. 5]: - “Domitian also, who possessed a share of Nero’s cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, 728 he very soon ceased, and even recalled those whom he had banished.”

10. But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years [ 81-96 AD] and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days [Dion Cassius, LXVIII. 1 sq., and Suetonius’ Domitian, chap. 23] 'voted' that Domitian’s honors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them.

11. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment2 in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition [ Literally, “the word of the ancients among us” (ὁ τῶν παρ᾽ ἡμῖν ἀρχαίων λόγος). On the tradition itself, see chap. 1, note 6].

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201 ... ii.xx.html

2 Eusebiu's commentary on John continues in E.H. in chapter 23 of bk 3.

Chapter 24 is about the order of the Gospels, and Chap. 25 is about the Divine Scriptures that are accepted and those that are not.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Giuseppe
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Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:53 am
^MrMacSon, I actually find that very relevant.

A few years ago I had thought that the two witnesses were Simon and Jacob, who fought with Rome during the revolt of 48 ad, and were subsequently defeated. The Lord crucified in verse 8 was their father, Judas of Galilee. So I had my relatives of the Lord. My thinking changed when I considered the greater impact that the Kitos revolt had upon Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the Jewish-Roman war only served as fertilizer for Christianity, and is rather overstated in its role as creating the theology.
I agree. The Kitos War moved also some Jews in Alexandria to become "no longer Jews", i.e. the first dualist Christian Gnostics.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

iskander
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Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by iskander » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:59 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:53 am
^MrMacSon, I actually find that very relevant.

A few years ago I had thought that the two witnesses were Simon and Jacob, who fought with Rome during the revolt of 48 ad, and were subsequently defeated. The Lord crucified in verse 8 was their father, Judas of Galilee. So I had my relatives of the Lord. My thinking changed when I considered the greater impact that the Kitos revolt had upon Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the Jewish-Roman war only served as fertilizer for Christianity, and is rather overstated in its role as creating the theology.
I agree. The Kitos War moved also some Jews in Alexandria to become "no longer Jews", i.e. the first dualist Christian Gnostics.
Gnostic Bishop is the acknowledged expert in Gnostic Christianity. Have you consulted with him?

Giuseppe
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Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Revelation 11 and the Kitos Revolt -- Christian Genesis, part 1

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am

iskander wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:59 am

Gnostic Bishop is the acknowledged expert in Gnostic Christianity. Have you consulted with him?
I like only this book about the origins of the Gnosticism. Personally, what I find interesting about the Gnosticism is the hostility to the Jewish God, the same hostility the scholar April DeConick sees at work in proto-John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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