A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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Joseph D. L.
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A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Two of our earliest sources from Gentile testimonies may shed some light onto this. The first is Pliny the Younger's Letter to Trajan.

Written by Pliny in 112ad, this is the earliest mention, reference or allusion to anything barring the semblance of Christianity. Even so, Pliny is not at all forthcoming with direct information regarding Christ him/itself, remarking only that the Christians in his province come together before dawn, sing hymns to Christ, and worship him/it -- he is even vague in this regard -- as would they a god.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so.
A few points to note regarding this testimony:

*Pliny's ignorance and inquiring for more information as to what these Christians are on about reveals that, contrary to the standardized idea of what it should have been by then, Christianity was still a fringe and marginal cult. This makes Tacitus's account of them in his Annals all the more questionable.

*Despite what the Apologetic or established academic beliefs are regarding the books of the New Testament, or even before a collecting of assorted texts together into a canon; Pliny's failure to simply read their own texts for information on Christian beliefs is almost a death blow to those who still want to argue that our texts were written in the first century, or at least were widespread.

*It is a rather curious coincidence that Pliny was governor of the region of Pontus, right where Marcion was later said to hail from, and that his vagueness as to the nature of this cult was actually referring to a Marcionite religion has not been lost on some.

The next witness is to be found in Lucian's De Morte Peregrinus, roughly 165 ad. While describing the many adventures of the Don Quixotic Peregrinus, what Lucian says about Christianity is perhaps the more interesting:
It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.
Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they are all brothers of one another after they have transgressed once, for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.
When comparing this two accounts of Pliny and Lucian, one is left with the clear observation that they are quite different in many ways. Lucian is knowledgeable at least of texts used by Christians; Pliny seems unaware of any texts. The Christians in Lucian's account appear to be of the Jamesian persuation--that Jesus was the leader of a community, divine only by proxy; the Christians in Pliny worship Chrestus as a God at dawn, emphasizing a solar/Logos theology; and lastly, Lucian's Christians are in the Syrian/Palestine region, while Pliny's Christians are in the northern Phrygia region.

In the eyes of Carrier and other mythicists, this would give credence to the argument that Christ was originally a god who was only Euhemerized and made more human over time. In the eyes of Ehrman and other historicists, this only serves to highlight the emerging nature of the religion, with information becoming more known over time.

But it is my own opinion and my own assessment of the available data, that leads me to believe that Pliny and Lucian are in fact talking about two different religions, or subsets of Judaism, at this point. The one, emphasizing a celestial Chrestus with possible ties to the surrounding cults of Attis and Sabazios; the other, a community in Palestine which was at one point lead by a someone who was believed to be crucified.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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Pliny's 10th book is entire fraudulent. It was unknown until 1508. In 1471 a 9 book edition was published, with no Christians mentioned. Guess which version sold better? Here is a PDF I copied of a brief and excellent analysis https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B75F1hK ... Vzdlk/edit

Lucian's work is a satire. Sandy foundation.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

Post by Joseph D. L. »

That is an interesting piece. One point of contention: arguing that since Pliny and Trajan appear unaware of the policies of Nero and his persecution of Christians is not suspicious, as the account of Nero's persecution of Christians is itself fraudulent.
Lucian's work is a satire. Sandy foundation.
But that should not take away from its usefulness. By all accounts, it is the very first historical witness of Christians and their beliefs (if Pliny's letter is indeed a forgery).
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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.
Apparently a stylometric analysis of Pliny’s letter about the Christians suggests "the presence of large amounts of interpolation inside the text of the letter, since its stylistic behaviour appears highly different from that of the rest of Book X."

Tuccinardi, Enrico (2017) An application of a profile-based method for authorship verification: Investigating the authenticity of Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan concerning the Christians Digital Scholarship in the Humanities, (Vol 32, Issue 2, June 2017), pp. 435–447.

Abstract
Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan regarding the Christians is a crucial subject for the studies on early Christianity. A serious quarrel among scholars concerning its genuineness arose between the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th; per contra, Plinian authorship has not been seriously questioned in the last few decades. After analysing various kinds of internal and external evidence in favour of and against the authenticity of the letter, a modern stylometric method is applied in order to examine whether internal linguistic evidence allows one to definitely settle the debate.The findings of this analysis tend to contradict received opinion among modern scholars, affirming the authenticity of Pliny’s letter, and suggest instead the presence of large amounts of interpolation inside the text of the letter, since its stylistic behaviour appears highly different from that of the rest of Book X.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:46 amA few points to note regarding this testimony:

*Pliny's ignorance and inquiring for more information as to what these Christians are on about reveals that, contrary to the standardized idea of what it should have been by then, Christianity was still a fringe and marginal cult.
Except that Pliny is not inquiring about more information about what Christians believed. He is writing to Trajan because he does "not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent."
Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:46 am*Despite what the Apologetic or established academic beliefs are regarding the books of the New Testament, or even before a collecting of assorted texts together into a canon; Pliny's failure to simply read their own texts for information on Christian beliefs is almost a death blow to those who still want to argue that our texts were written in the first century, or at least were widespread.
But do the Gospels and the letters in the NT provide the information on Christian beliefs that Pliny was after? Note what Pliny reports on: that Christians "were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food."

Then note what he was concerned about:

"Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."

Pliny was concerned with the political implications of large numbers of Christians in his area. That the Christians believed in "depraved, excessive superstition" doesn't appear to be a concern, except only in as far as they didn't worship the Emperor's image.
Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:46 am... the Christians in Pliny worship Chrestus as a God at dawn, emphasizing a solar/Logos theology; and lastly, Lucian's Christians are in the Syrian/Palestine region, while Pliny's Christians are in the northern Phrygia region.
No, I don't think you can infer that Pliny the Younger's Christians emphasized a solar theology. Tertullian writes in his Apology:
  • Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer...
I don't know where you are reading a "Logos" theology from?
Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:46 amIn the eyes of Carrier and other mythicists, this would give credence to the argument that Christ was originally a god who was only Euhemerized and made more human over time. In the eyes of Ehrman and other historicists, this only serves to highlight the emerging nature of the religion, with information becoming more known over time.
I don't see it telling us much on the historicist/mythicist question, one way or the other. But it does show that Christians had grown in such numbers that they were becoming a political threat, at least around Bithynia area. (Assuming Pliny the Younger wrote the letter in the first place!)

Lucian certainly explains Christianity on a founding man crucified in Palestine. Interestingly he writes: "whom they [Christians] still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world." Christ was crucified because he introduced this new cult into the world? It's an interesting way to put it.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

Post by Bernard Muller »

Pliny's 10th book is entire fraudulent. It was unknown until 1508. In 1471 a 9 book edition was published, with no Christians mentioned.
From Tertullian's Apology, Ch. 2:
For the younger Pliny, when he was ruler of a province, having condemned some Christians to death, and driven some from their stedfastness, being still annoyed by their great numbers, at last sought the advice of Trajan, the reigning emperor, as to what he was to do with the rest, explaining to his master that, except an obstinate disinclination to offer sacrifices, he found in the religious services nothing but meetings at early morning for singing hymns to Christ and God, and sealing home their way of life by a united pledge to be faithful to their religion, forbidding murder, adultery, dishonesty, and other crimes. Upon this Trajan wrote back that Christians were by no means to be sought after; but if they were brought before him, they should be punished.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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No, I don't think you can infer that Pliny the Younger's Christians emphasized a solar theology./
The sun was Logos. Or, I should say, light comes from Logos. Meeting before dawn, as the sun rose, to sing hymns to Christ implies a solar Logos theology.

You can read more about the solar nature of the theology in Vinzent's book on the resurrection.

The emphasis of fire in regards to the Angel of the Lord in the burning bush, the radiant face of Moses after speaking with God, the name Ignatius Theophorus which means the fire which bears God, and Polycarp's desire to be immolated, reflects this solar/fire component at work.

1 Enoch may also infer this meaning, wherein in describes the sun and moon in anthropomorphic terms as he and she respectively. And Psalms 19 places the Tabernacle in the sun.

So fire=light/sun=Logos. At least that's how Justin Martyr understood it.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

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Meeting before dawn, as the sun rose, to sing hymns to Christ implies a solar Logos theology.
OR, meeting before dawn was because later they had to separate and go to their respective workplace ;)

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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

Post by GakuseiDon »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:36 pm
No, I don't think you can infer that Pliny the Younger's Christians emphasized a solar theology./
The sun was Logos. Or, I should say, light comes from Logos.
Who thought that? I'd appreciate references. Early Christians like Justin Martyr referred to the Logos as Reason, Word, things like that. Anyone calling it the sun?
Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:36 pmMeeting before dawn, as the sun rose, to sing hymns to Christ implies a solar Logos theology.
No it doesn't. I like Bernard's explanation just above. They may have been meeting in the hours before dawn to perform an activity frowned upon by the public at large.
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Re: A Tale of Two Christianities--Christian Genesis, part 2

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Who thought that? I'd appreciate references. Early Christians like Justin Martyr referred to the Logos as Reason, Word, things like that. Anyone calling it the sun?
https://books.google.com/books?id=qA2vC ... os&f=false

I think Plutarch also referred to Helios as the Logos as well, but I can't remember. I'll see if I can find that and check back.

Also worth noting is the comparison between Genesis 1:3-5 and John
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day." ~ Gen 1:3-5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." ~ John 1:1-5
The light created by God's reason in Genesis is conceived as Logos in John.

Justin's understanding of Logos is much more nuanced.
"And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.” Then I repeated once more all that I had previously quoted from Exodus, about the vision in the bush, and the naming of Joshua (Jesus), and continued: “And do not suppose, sirs, that I am speaking superfluously when I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears arrayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. In this way, they teach, He made the angels. But it is proved that there are angels who always exist, and are never reduced to that form out of which they sprang. And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.
Here Justin emphatically compares Logos to fire and the sun.
No it doesn't. I like Bernard's explanation just above. They may have been meeting in the hours before dawn to perform an activity frowned upon by the public at large.
Pliny saying they met on a fixed day should be interpreted as them gathering on the Sabbath, which was on Sunday. Again, Justin says:
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
So Bernard's interpretation does not apply, as the days was one of worship and not work. Your interpretation doesn't apply as the Christians were not hiding their practices and would admit on the spot that they were Christians.
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