Gal 6:12 "only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ"?

[GakuseiDon]

One thing that has confused me (or one of the many things!) is Gal 6:12. I've given it and the following passages below (NKJV):

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

I take the "they" in 6:12 to be Jewish Christians rather than Jews generally, and so the people doing the persecution here are the Jewish leaders. So is this passage saying that the Jewish Christians (presumably James' group) wanted Gentile Christians to be circumcised, because if the Gentile Christians were circumcised, then the Jewish Christians wouldn't be persecuted?

But if that is so, why does Paul write "that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ"?

To put it another way, Paul seems to be saying: Jewish Christians will not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ if the Gentile Christians are circumcised. "For the cross of Christ" seems to me to be "the message of Christ dying on the cross." If that is correct, then as long as Christians were circumcised and presumably followed other Jewish laws, the Jewish leaders had no problems with Christians, even though they were preaching a Risen Jesus Christ.

Is that a fair reading on what is going on there? Any thoughts?

[Giuseppe]

Correct. Well argued.

[Bernard Muller]

First a detail: I do not think that in Galatians, these Jewish Christians were necessarily after circumcision of the Gentiles. That's a scare tactic Paul used: if you go under their spell, you will be asked to be circumcised.

If that is correct, then as long as Christians were circumcised and presumably followed other Jewish laws, the Jewish leaders had no problems with Christians, even though they were preaching a Risen Jesus Christ.

Yes, but that does not mean Peter and James were preaching also a Risen Jesus Christ. They probably tolerated that belief about a spiritual resurrection (hard to disprove if some Christian preachers were claiming visions & revelations from above) and kept silent about the issue.
Of course, at that times, there were no stories about an empty tomb and a bodily resurrection witnessed by the disciples. That came later.
http://historical-jesus.info/8.html (Did Jesus' disciples believe in the Resurrection and resurrections?)
and, for the bigger picture:
http://historical-jesus.info/108.html (Did the early Galilean pillars of the Church of Jerusalem (Peter, John & Jesus' brother James) become Christians?)

Cordially, Bernard

[neilgodfrey]

Morton Smith argued that the "cross of Christ" was "code" for a surpassing of the requirement of the law for salvation.

It was not a crucified messiah per se that was the offence but what Paul preached was the implication and meaning of that crucifixion -- the "end of the law".

[iskander]

One thing that has confused me (or one of the many things!) is Gal 6:12. I've given it and the following passages below (NKJV):

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

I take the "they" in 6:12 to be Jewish Christians rather than Jews generally, and so the people doing the persecution here are the Jewish leaders. So is this passage saying that the Jewish Christians (presumably James' group) wanted Gentile Christians to be circumcised, because if the Gentile Christians were circumcised, then the Jewish Christians wouldn't be persecuted?

But if that is so, why does Paul write "that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ"?

To put it another way, Paul seems to be saying: Jewish Christians will not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ if the Gentile Christians are circumcised. "For the cross of Christ" seems to me to be "the message of Christ dying on the cross." If that is correct, then as long as Christians were circumcised and presumably followed other Jewish laws, the Jewish leaders had no problems with Christians, even though they were preaching a Risen Jesus Christ.

Is that a fair reading on what is going on there? Any thoughts?

Circumcision in the first century was ( remains) very, very important for some .
Genesis
17:13 [All slaves,] both houseborn and purchased with your money must be circumcised. This shall be My covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant.
Himol yimol yelid beytcha umiknat kaspecha vehayetah vriti bivesarchem liverit olam
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp? ... &portion=3

Paul seem to be saying the agitators demand circumcision as the necessary condition for membership of the eternal covenant . The followers of Jesus will not suffer if they are circumcised because God ( and his mortal servants) will keep his side of the covenant. The uncircumcised cannot become Israel and will remain unprotected ( or even punished) by God ( and his mortal servants).

Paul says that it is not necessary to cut the flesh because they are already circumcised in the heart , --Deut 10: 16.You shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, therefore, and be no more stiffnecked.

The death of Jesus was all that humanity needed to be admitted to the presence of God

[GakuseiDon]

Thank you, Neil and Bernard, for your comments.

First a detail: I do not think that in Galatians, these Jewish Christians were necessarily after circumcision of the Gentile. That's a scare tactic Paul used: if you go under their spell, you will be asked to be circumcised.

Maybe. But if Paul means what I think he means, then Jewish Christians faced persecution from Jews only should they bring in non-circumcised Gentiles. If Jewish Christians were preaching a Cross message, then it wasn't a 'persecutable' belief.

If that is correct, then as long as Christians were circumcised and presumably followed other Jewish laws, the Jewish leaders had no problems with Christians, even though they were preaching a Risen Jesus Christ.

Yes, but that does not mean Peter and James were preaching also a Risen Jesus Christ. They probably tolerated that belief about a spiritual resurrection (hard to disprove if some Christian preachers were claiming visions & revelations from above) and kept silent about the issue.
Of course, at that times, there were no stories about an empty tomb and a bodily resurrection witnessed by the disciples. That came later.
http://historical-jesus.info/8.html (Did Jesus' disciples believe in the Resurrection and resurrections?)
and, for the bigger picture:
http://historical-jesus.info/108.html (Did the early Galilean pillars of the Church of Jerusalem (Peter, John & Jesus' brother James) become Christians?)

I see you think that 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 is an interpolation, so Paul doesn't detail post-death Jesus visions there. Fair enough. But if the Jewish Christians weren't preaching a Risen Jesus Christ, what then do you think "the gospel to the circumcised" that was committed to Peter was about? From Gal 2:7:

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

"Gospel" is 'good news'. If the James' group only had a dead Messiah (who stayed dead) in mind, what was the good news for the circumcised?

[Bernard Muller]

to GakuseiDon,

But if the Jewish Christians weren't preaching a Risen Jesus Christ, what then do you think "the gospel to the circumcised" that was committed to Peter was about? From Gal 2:7:

I did not say that. The Jewish Christians were very likely then preaching also about a Risen Jesus Christ (as the King who would come back on earth). But Peter was not a Christian, just a Jew.
Gal 2:7-8 is most likely an interpolation. See http://historical-jesus.info/109.html and https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/Barnikol.html

"Gospel" is 'good news'. If the James' group only had a dead Messiah (who stayed dead) in mind, what was the good news for the circumcised?

Not even a Messiah, just a dead prophet who prophesied about the Kingdom of God to come soon on earth for the benefit of the poor Jews (during James' times, that got changed to include also the righteous Jews who were living as the poor ones), still alive then. That was their good news.
http://historical-jesus.info/38.html
Also
http://historical-jesus.info/hjes2x.html
Jesus' message: appealing, clear & simple message, inspired from his time & background
with many digressions! Afterlife beliefs and Paul with Peter, James (Jesus' brother) & the "Nazarenes"; Didache & Ebionites

Cordially, Bernard

[DCHindley]

One thing that has confused me (or one of the many things!) is Gal 6:12. I've given it and the following passages below (NKJV):

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

I take the "they" in 6:12 to be Jewish Christians rather than Jews generally, and so the people doing the persecution here are the Jewish leaders. So is this passage saying that the Jewish Christians (presumably James' group) wanted Gentile Christians to be circumcised, because if the Gentile Christians were circumcised, then the Jewish Christians wouldn't be persecuted?

But if that is so, why does Paul write "that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ"?

To put it another way, Paul seems to be saying: Jewish Christians will not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ if the Gentile Christians are circumcised. "For the cross of Christ" seems to me to be "the message of Christ dying on the cross." If that is correct, then as long as Christians were circumcised and presumably followed other Jewish laws, the Jewish leaders had no problems with Christians, even though they were preaching a Risen Jesus Christ.

Is that a fair reading on what is going on there? Any thoughts?

If my opinion can be endured, I am convinced that the text as preserved can not be made sensible. It is so confused and contradictory. We really have to stop being so in awe of it, as if the Christians are right to think of it as "God breathed." This was what led me to make the break and treat the "Christ statements" separately than the rest, and to me it really made it easier to understand Paul as a 1st century CE Judean of the diaspora, as opposed to whoever introduced the Christ passages.

The former (Paul) had come, by means of what he took to be divine intervention, to accept that there were "Godly" gentiles who the God of the Judeans had "justified," and that he had been born for the purpose of gathering them into the fold of what he here called "the Israel of God." He was proud of his Judean heritage (perhaps as the son of a proselyte) but had convinced himself that these godly gentiles were often in no position to voluntarily submit to circumcision or practice the law, the latter being something he himself struggled with. In the end, he concluded that God was telling him to accept them as they were, and as brothers in faith. Simple and sincere belief that God would fulfill the promises he had made to Abram with regard to his "seed," was all that was required. He saw the fulfillment as including all good and honest people who were guided by their consciences, whether Judean or Greek. He was thus operating in the spirit of those Judeans who welcomed gentile patrons of their synagogues, and accepted them into their reading circles and worship. Inscriptions tell us that there were many gentiles who were open to accepting Judeans as neighbors, business partners, and - let's face it - friends. Paul was glad to reciprocate, but was running into resistance to this POV from other Judeans who were not so willing to be universalists. This Paul had never so much as heard of Jesus Christ, and if he did, would not have embraced his message.

On the other hand, the persons(s) who introduced the Christ language, saw Jesus Christ as a divine savior figure who removed any barrier, especially circumcision and the law, that separated people from the true god, a god that was more a divine spirit than the God of Judeans only. His opinion of Judeans was not very positive, suggesting that his (or their) history with Judeans was not a happy one. These, I have postulated, were what had become of gentiles who had followed the human Jesus in the regions between Judea and southern Syria, wanting to be included in his nationalistic conception of a kingdom of God on earth, and had converted to be able to participate fully in it. Due to circumstances that must have been severe (and which I identify as the severe ethnic strife that accompanied the Judean rebellion of 66 CE), they became disillusioned with that vision. Struggling to rationalize their understanding of Jesus and his relation to themselves, they in time transformed their conception of Jesus as an earthly messiah who would inaugurate this kingdom into a mystical, and mythical, savior figure, probably borrowing from the mystery religions and perhaps "gnostic" myths regarding salvation from this world of corruption by means of openings to the heavens made possible by a divine redeemer. Unfortunately, his/their interjections of their own beliefs into Paul's letters were not so artfully done, and so the spaghetti code we see preserved.

6:12a Ὅσοι θέλουσιν εὐπροσωπῆσαι ἐν σαρκί, οὗτοι ἀναγκάζουσιν ὑμᾶς περιτέμνεσθαι,	6:12a It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh that would compel you to be circumcised,
6:12b μόνον ἵνα τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ Χριστοῦ μὴ διώκωνται.		6:12b and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
6:13 οὐδὲ γὰρ οἱ *περιτεμνόμενοι* αὐτοὶ νόμον φυλάσσουσιν ἀλλὰ θέλουσιν ὑμᾶς περιτέμνεσθαι, ἵνα ἐν τῇ ὑμετέρᾳ σαρκὶ καυχήσωνται.	6:13 Not even those (who) *receive circumcision* manage to fully keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh.
6:14a Ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι	6:14a But far be it from me to be boasting
6:14b εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ.		6:14b except in the cross of the Lord of us Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
6:15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις.	6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
6:16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.	6:16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.
6:17 Τοῦ λοιποῦ κόπους μοι μηδεὶς παρεχέτω·ἐγὼ γὰρ τὰ στίγματα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἐν τῷ σώματί μου βαστάζω.		6:17 Henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
6:18 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ τοῦ πνεύματος ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοί· ἀμήν.		6:18 The grace of the Lord of us Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

Sauce, anyone?

DCH

[Ben C. Smith]

If my opinion can be endured....

Please give the committee time to determine whether or not your opinion is to be endured, and we will get back to you.

[DCHindley]

If my opinion can be endured....

Please give the committee time to determine whether or not your opinion is to be endured, and we will get back to you.

Well, ya' know how folks get "brain block" when they have to think outside the box. The BC box is very securely taped and not intended to be opened ...

Off to my 1st stop of the day ...