Is the centurion at the cross the 'first Christian'?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Is the centurion at the cross the 'first Christian'?

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:59 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:12 amNote also he says: "this man was son of God", which by itself seems to preclude that this is intended as a Christian confession.
Right, but there might be an adoptionist/separationist reason for the past tense. At the baptism, the spirit descends into Jesus, and then the voice from heaven says, "You are my beloved son." This sequence may suggest that Jesus + spirit of God = son of God (compare Romans 8.15). So at the cross the process reverses: Jesus exhales his last, which is the spirit leaving his body, and now only Jesus the man is left on the cross. The equation is now broken, so "this man was the son of God."
It is possible, but the question still remains: Is the centurion's statement 1) meant to be a true confession by the centurion himself and so he is the 'first ever (adoptionist/separationist!) Christian', or 2) is the centurion unknowingly making some kind of symbolic foreshadowing statement that only the readers can recognize as 'confession' language?

If 2), then what does the centurion mean himself with his statement?
iskander
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Re: Is the centurion at the cross the 'first Christian'?

Post by iskander »

Being spoken of as the son of god--Divi filius..would have meant very little for the roman centurion. Perhaps he truly believed he was the son of Zeus or some other god, such as the god of the natives. Not the Christian god for that god did not exist until the Council of Nicaea.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Is the centurion at the cross the 'first Christian'?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Stefan Kristensen wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:52 pm I don't know, I just think that both the sarcastic explanation is weak, and even more so the confession explanation. What do you think?
It seems that Matthew and Luke feeled the need to make the story more plausibly. Matthew added supernatural events which functioned as a mind changer for the officer and his statement looks like the result of an emotional-impulsive knowledge. Luke added a pious saying of Jesus and weakened the officer's statement (Jesus is just a righteous man). Both changed what the officer saw before his statement (from „how Jesus died“ to „what things took place“).
Matthew
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Luke
44 It was now about the sixth hour,5 and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. 47 Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent!” 48 And all the crowds that had assembled for this spectacle, when they saw what had taken place, returned home beating their breasts.

I'm interested mainly in four points of Mark's text.
Mark 15:39 Having seen moreover, the centurion standing opposite of him that in this way he breathed his last, he said: Truly, this man was son of God.

It could be that the phrase „standing opposite of him“ (ἐξ ἐναντίας - the root of the word is „anti'“) is not only a description of place, but also of attitude. I think this is clear in Mark 10:37, but not in Mark 15:27.
10:37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand (ἐκ δεξιῶν) and one at your left (ἐξ ἀριστερῶν), in your glory.”
We discussed the second point yesterday.

Thirdly, I think that the emphasizing of the statement lies on „this man“ (οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος) and not on „son of god“, whatever it could mean.

You mentioned already the last point, nameley that the statement „was son of God“ is not a complete Christian confession (that would be „is the son of the God“).
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MrMacSon
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Re: Is the centurion at the cross the 'first Christian'?

Post by MrMacSon »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:27 pm
I'm interested mainly in four points of Mark's text.

Mark 15:39 Having seen moreover, the centurion standing opposite of him that in this way he breathed his last, he said: Truly, this man was son of God.

It could be that the phrase „standing opposite of him“ (ἐξ ἐναντίας - the root of the word is „anti'“) is not only a description of place, but also [a description] of attitude. I think this is clear in Mark 10:37, but not in Mark 15:27.
.
I think Kunigunde makes some good points. Notice the change of emphasis by my different use of bold, underline, and italics.
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