Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2
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Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

I think I see where the "messianic" chocolate meets the "son of man" peanut butter in Christianity now. As Mk. 8:27-30 puts it:
Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
In other words, Jesus thinks he is the Messiah ("Christ"/"anointed one") and conflates this status with Daniel's divine "son of man" in 8:31-32, which is the part that Peter has trouble understanding:
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
And I think the "must suffer"/"must be killed" part regarding this "Messiah"/"son of man" is due to Jesus' interpretation of Dan. 9:26, which mentions "an anointed one" who will be "cut off and have nothing":
Now after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.
So I think Jesus is conflating the divine "son of man" in Dan. 7:14 with the cut off "anointed one" in Dan. 9:26 (which in my view are separate things). I think this is also where Jesus gets his prediction that “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down” in Mk. 13:2 (and his apocalypticism in general), since Dan. 9:26 goes on to say:
As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them. But his end will come speedily like a flood. Until the end of the war that has been decreed there will be destruction.


I think this conflation of "the Messiah" and Daniel's "son of man" is also apparent in Mk. 14:61-62:
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am, said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
And I think this is why Jesus was a false prophet (at least from the perspective of the Torah), because he made this prediction that "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven" (echoed in Mk. 9:1: "And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power"; and in 13:26-27: "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens"), and I don't think this ever happened (to judge from Christians themselves!).

I once considered something Josephus says in War 6.5.3 in light of Jesus' prediction, that one of the signs seen before the destruction of 70 CE was that:
...a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
Hey, maybe this was Jesus and his angels. Maybe Jesus was right. But as I said, Christians themselves don't seem to think that the Messiah/"son of man" has come on the clouds of heaven yet. In late first century CE to mid second century CE Jewish Christian writings (Revelation, Hegesippus) it hasn't happened yet. In Hegesippus, for example, the grandsons of Jesus' brother Judas are said to still be waiting up to the time of Trajan:
And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works. Upon hearing this, Domitian did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the persecution of the Church. But when they were released they ruled the churches because they were witnesses and were also relatives of the Lord. And peace being established, they lived until the time of Trajan.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

I think this "Messiah"/Daniel's divine/angelic "son of man" hybrid also explains why Jesus was killed. In other words, Jesus thinks he's this divine/angelic "son of man" and this was consequently seen (and I think understandably so) as being blasphemous "crazy talk."

And Jesus says outright at the time of his arrest in Mk. 14:48-49 that he is not leading a rebellion and that his arrest and death must happen to fulfill the Scriptures:
“Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus, “that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.
And I take this to be an allusion to (and an indication of Jesus' conflation of) the suffering and death of "an anointed one" in Dan. 9:26 and the divine "son of man" in Dan. 7:14, given what he goes on to say in 14:60-64:
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.
And when you also factor in that Jesus had been going around telling people not to observe the Pharisees' oral Torah, which they believed to be divine and Josephus says was the law of the land at the time, I can understand why they did not care for him.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2 wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:55 pm I think I see where the "messianic" chocolate meets the "son of man" peanut butter in Christianity now.
Great image. :lol:
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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

Thanks, Ben. And now I'm starting to wonder -all of a sudden- if Jesus thinking he is the "anointed one" of Dan. 9:26 could have something to do with the argument that's been going on around here that Jesus did not think he was a "Davidic" Messiah in Mark. I'll have to take another look at that question in this light.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:06 pm
“Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus, “that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.
And I take this to be an allusion to (and an indication of Jesus' conflation of) the suffering and death of "an anointed one" in Dan. 9:26 and the divine "son of man" in Dan. 7:14, given what he goes on to say in 14:60-64.
I think you are connecting the dots well overall here. I do not think they require Jesus himself to have connected them, but that is certainly not impossible. I would add that Daniel itself seems to be interpreting the Suffering Servant passages in Isaiah, as a lot of scholars have pointed out; compare Isaiah 53.11 with its interpretation in Daniel 12.3, for instance:

Isaiah 53.11: By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many [יַצְדִּ֥יק ... לָֽרַבִּ֑ים].

Daniel 12.3: And those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, those who justify the many [וּמַצְדִּיקֵי֙ הָֽרַבִּ֔ים], like the stars forever and ever.

These are the faithful remnant, the martyrs slain during the distress of Daniel 12.1, the ones also described in 11.33. This line of thought (one individual or group suffering for the collective) continues unabated through the books of the Maccabees, helping to explain several allusions to those books in the gospels, including:

1 Maccabees 2.27-28: 27 Then Mattathias cried out in the city with a loud voice, saying: "Let every one who is zealous for the law and supports the covenant come out with me!" 28 And he and his sons fled to the mountains and left all that they had in the city.

Mark 13.14: 14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

While I think there could also be elements of the Suffering Servant in Jesus' philosophy, his fixation on Daniel is arguably in keeping with the larger context of his time. As Mason puts the situation on page 49 of the second edition of Josephus and the New Testament:
... Josephus was especially fond of the book of Daniel. Although rabbinic Judaism would not ultimately include Daniel among the prophets, Josephus considered him "one of the greatest of the prophets" (Ant. 10.266). Josephus confirms the evidence of the NT that Daniel was widely read by first-century Jews, because that book was thought to have revealed events of their own time.


Daniel is also my guess for the "four-square" oracle Josephus mentions in War. 6.5.4 (along with the arguably messianic world ruler prophecy, which some argue is also based on Daniel), which he says Jews interpreted to apply to themselves or that they were at least aware them:
Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, that then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square ... But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
I would guess that this oracle about the Temple is also from Daniel (9:25). The reference to a square isn't in most translations, but that is one of the meanings of the word "rechob."

NAS, for example, translates rechob as a "plaza":
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza [rechob] and moat, even in times of distress.
While the ESV has "squares" (though rechob appears to be singular to me):
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares [rechob] and moat, but in a troubled time.
Rechob:
Short Definition: square ... open square (7), open squares (1), plaza (1), plazas (1), square (14), squares (4), street (1), streets (13), town squares (1).

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7339.htm
So when we add Dan. 9:26 and use the word square instead of plaza it says:
Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with [a square] and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Notice how the wording lines up with what Josephus says about the Temple oracle.

Josephus:

"That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house ..."

Dan. 9:26:

"The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary ..."

So in my view Jesus was just another young person caught up in the Fourth Philosophy and inspired by Daniel's messianism and eschatology like all the others Josephus says "interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure."
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2 wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:59 pmDaniel is also my guess for the "four-square" oracle Josephus mentions in War. 6.5.4 (along with the arguably messianic world ruler prophecy, which some argue is also based on Daniel), which he says Jews interpreted to apply to themselves or that they were at least aware them:
Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, that then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square ... But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
I would guess that this oracle about the Temple is also from Daniel (9:25). The reference to a square isn't in most translations, but that is one of the meanings of the word "rechob."

NAS, for example, translates rechob as a "plaza":
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza [rechob] and moat, even in times of distress.
While the ESV has "squares" (though rechob appears to be singular to me):
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares [rechob] and moat, but in a troubled time.
Rechob:
Short Definition: square ... open square (7), open squares (1), plaza (1), plazas (1), square (14), squares (4), street (1), streets (13), town squares (1).
That does make sense. Ezekiel 45.2 also suggests that the sanctuary will be square, the LXX using the same word for this as Josephus does in War 6.5.4 §311 (τετράγωνον). But I am not sure Ezekiel by itself can be read as implying the destruction of this new temple in the way that Daniel can. On the other hand, ancient exegetes combined such prophecies all the time.

Interestingly, the Temple Scroll (11Q19) apparently describes a square sanctuary.
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richardthe7th
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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I am brand new to this forum; not new to the topics in the forum moniker. And forgive me in advance, truly, for 'branching' this thread and feel free to ignore and move on with the OP.
But this topic, which I saw in passing while looking for a different one, reminds me of my most recent pass through Isaiah, and how this time it struck me again and again the number of prophesies of Isaiah not yet fulfilled. But we [Christians] regard Isaiah as a faithful prophet of Y-H [is it ok to spell it out here or not?]. "Yet" is a big exit door here...:)
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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^ I just use the Spanish "El Yahweh". :cheeky:
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 --

I believe that we shop in different stores in the Mall but you bring up an interesting topic.

1. "Someone knew something".
John 12: 1 (RSV):
[1] Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz'arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

By previous analysis, "Jesus" is Ritually Unclean here. The reason is that "Jesus" is having a meal with utensils at the burial area of Lazarus. This is against the Book of Numbers which also gives the Method of Cleansing for someone who has been rendered Unclean in this manner. "Jesus" does not get Cleaned.

2. There is another way out of this, at least for Joseph of Arimathea. Joe is Ritually Unclean as well but he has a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card. He can go to the Second Passover which is specifically made for those who have touched a body or are "Sojourners". "Jesus" is in both Classes, oddly enough and may have benefited from this as well though it would mess up the Mishmarot Assignments that govern Temple Service ("Pethehiah" would have been on Duty a month after "Immer" and there is no evidence - as far as I can tell - that this Group played a part in the Ur-Story).

3. John 11: 47 - 50 (RSV):
[47] So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, "What are we to do? For this man performs many signs.
[48] If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."
[49] But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;
[50] you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."

"...you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people..."

This is an incredible word, "expedient". It is the High Priest speaking. It is a marker for the depths the Upper Layer of the Priesthood has become corrupted. Alexander Jannaeus, a valid High Priest and King, was pelted with citrons because a false story circulated that he was not of sufficient Purity. Now, the High Priest is talking "expediency" Why?

"...AND that the whole nation should not perish..."

The Fix is in. As stated before, the Roman Plan for Judea is on display. A new Religion is about to be created and if the Jews are to survive, they must agree to the imposition of the Roman Rule and this new religion. The few Priests who survived were allowed to have a school under the Guidance of Zakkai.

4. There are other Clues that point to a massaging-of-the-facts. The Hasmoneans Rulers who were killed are listed in Puzzles built around the Passover of 9 CE. The Herod Stories were hidden but seen with Josephus:

Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

This is a Herod Story, built around the creation of the Safe Harbor at Caesarea.
***

I believe that there are enough clues available to assert that there was something other than Source Stories that provided the basis for the NT. It would have been labeled "Contract Work". It was written by the survivors who KNEW. They wrote in a Type of Code to show that there was little other choice if they were to survive.

"Jesus" was a "False Prophet". In order to see this, however, you must look at the Stories from the Priestly persective, not the Roman perspective.

Those Priestly Authors left enough Clues in the Data.

CW
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