Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Clive
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Clive »

This feels easily testable and falsifiable. Look at all use of the term Jesus and ask is it actually saying Jesus, and if it is, when and where. Carry out a full translation of the Bible and early texts replacing Jesus with an English version of IC - the holy man, what? The horned god?

I think it is arguable that Islam was picking up on these earlier ideas - Islam is about the relationships between God and Man - Mohammed does translate as praised - and therefore an evolution of these ideas is traceable.

We also have a further example - the Jesus Stele in China - that also show the evolution of these ideas.

Is "Jesus" a catholic heresy? Maybe the British were corrupted in a two stage process, Whitby and the martyrdom of St Harold. Protestantism is then a further heresy built on the catholic one!

The following also explores the male and female aspects of the holy man.
The Jesus Sutras
On its publication, my book translating these Sutras aroused great interest. The Christianity revealed in the texts emerges in a form unknown to most of us. In showing what the past has been, these writings suggested what the future could be. An ancient faith revealed a way of believing ideal for those who live today.

My colleagues and I found classics brought to China by the first official Church mission in 635 CE, texts not extant only in Chinese. We found Persian books retelling the life of Jesus; documents from the Subcontinent exploring the fusion of Greek and Indian Buddhist traditions; evidence of religious dialogue among Christians and Hindus and Jains; even a fragment of a text from the ancient Church of Tibet. The insight into Greek, Persian, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and shamanic cultures was remarkable. So was the ability of the Church to fuse Christian teachings and images with wisdom and symbolism from other traditions.

The Jade-Faced One
In the Sutras, Jesus is called “the Jade-Faced One,” because, for the Daoists, jade is the stone of immortality. In the Sutras, the doctrine of original sin has no place. Creation is innately good. Concepts of dharma and reincarnation are explored. There is even feminism. The Sutra of the Teachings of the World-Honored One explains that Eve’s sin in Eden is fully expiated by the women who are the first to see the evidence of the risen Christ, saying:


As the first woman caused the lies of humanity, so it was women who first told the truth about what had happened, to show all that the Messiah forgave women and wished them to be treated properly in the future. (Ch 5:32)


The early Chinese Church taught that not only feminine nature, but all human nature is in harmony with Nature itself. The Stone Sutra explains that, as in Daoist philosophy, the whole of creation is intrinsically good. Only when humans allow the goodness that is their birthright to be invaded by foolishness, greed, envy and pride do they become inharmonious with the rest of creation. “Original sin”—the doctrine that “in Adam’s fall/ we sinned all”—is not mentioned.
http://www.sevenpillarshouse.org/articl ... st_future/

We are talking revolution.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

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I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote:I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.
This happens sometimes, but I still like Clive well enough because I can't detect any over-arching agenda to his posts. That's worth something.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Clive
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Clive »

We are talking revolution.
It was this bit - I think there is a huge amount of evidence for the op, it is a matter of sifting through it - I gave three possible sources of evidence - the texts themselves, Islam and Christianity getting to China in the 600's.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Secret Alias
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Secret Alias »

The revolution is that there was no 'Jesus' originally. Of course if I was really smart I'd be about to figure out who this Chrestos was. I don't think it was IC. I think they were two different people.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Clive
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Clive »

So when was Jesus invented?

And on Christ, is it that anointing became a name and was utterly confused with good? One of the possible titles of the IC was Yahweh's good and or anointed man?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Secret Alias
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Secret Alias »

If I am right Eesh operated independently of Yahweh. That's the bone of contention with the Marcionites.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Secret Alias »

Just go through the Pentateuch and the Book of Joshua and see how many times a generic 'man' is mentioned or 'men.' The man (and leader of the men) = our 'Jesus.' Whenever Jews and Samaritans agree on anything chances are its ancient (= before their split c. 400 BCE)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

Post by Secret Alias »

Back to this:
Why else did He rebuke him? If it was because he was entirely wrong, then He was neither Jesus nor the Holy One of God; if it was because he was partially wrong----for having supposed him to be, rightly enough, Jesus and the Holy One of God, but also as belonging to the Creator----most unjustly would He have rebuked him for thinking what he knew he ought to think (about Him), and for not supposing that of Him which he knew not that he ought to suppose----that he was another Jesus, and the holy one of the other god.

Aut cur eum increpuit? Si quasi mentitum in totum, ergo non fuit Iesus, nec dei sanctus omnino: si quasi ex parte mentitum, quod eum Iesum quidem et sanctum dei, sed creatoris, existimasset, iniustissime increpuit hoc sentientem quod sciebat sentiendum, et hoc non existimantem quod ignorabat existimandum, alium Iesum et alterius dei sanctum.
The idea that 'he wasn't Jesus' is a very strange concept. It assumes that the demoniac knew in advance who or what a 'Jesus' was and that Jesus rebuked him because he wasn't Jesus. Tertullian doesn't say 'he wasn't named Jesus' but rather 'he wasn't Jesus' - non fuit Iesus being such a weird expression it isn't used by anyone else in the history of Latin as far as I can see. non fuit homo by comparison has 26,000 Google hits.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: Finding Jesus (= אישו) at the Beginning of Genesis

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Secret Alias wrote:I am so smart, I am so smart (and the youth soccer team I coach won 14 - 0). I am so smart, I am so talented.
Huller, is that you? :whistling:
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