The true origin of the talmudic legend that Jesus stole the Magic Name of God

[Giuseppe]

All know the story of the Toledoth Yeschu about Jesus.

For example, so Wiki:

Yeshu later went to the Jerusalem Temple and learned the letters of God’s ineffable name (one could do anything desired by them). He gathered 310 young men and proclaimed himself the Messiah, claiming Isaiah’s “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son” and other prophets prophesied about him. Using God’s name he healed a lame man, they worshipped him as the Messiah. The Sanhedrin decided to arrest him, and sent messengers to invite him to Jerusalem. They pretended to be his disciples to trick him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

So according to this later story, Jesus is accused to have stolen the Magic Name of God.


Now, it cannot be a coincidence to know who possessed the Magic Name of God, according to Exodus 23:20-23:

20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out

Obviously that Angel is Joshua, i.e. 'YHWH-saves'.

(for me it is already a surprising coincidence the occurrences of name of God in his name + the esecution of the same actions attributed to that angel).

So the Toledoth Jeschu has euhemerized the old belief that the ''Angel of God'' was named 'YHWH-saves'' and was the same archangel Jesus adored by the Christians.

Therefore Larry Hurtado doesn't know (or is a liar) when he writes:

There is no evidence whatsoever of a “Jewish archangel Jesus” in any of the second-temple Jewish evidence.  We have references to archangels, to be sure, and with various names such as Michael, Raphael, Yahoel, and Ouriel.  We have references to other heavenly beings too, such as the mysterious Melchizedek in the Qumran texts.  Indeed, in second-temple Jewish texts and (later) rabbinic texts there is a whole galaxy of named angels and angel ranks.[iv]  But, I repeat, there is no such being named “Jesus.”  Instead, all second-temple instances of the name are for historical figures.[v]  So, the supposed “background” figure for Carrier’s “mythical” Jesus is a chimaera, an illusion in Carrier’s mind based on a lack of first-hand familiarity with the ancient Jewish evidence.[vi]

https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2017 ... -scholars/

[Giuseppe]

The Shem should not be confused with the Tetragrammaton but with the 72 letters of the secret Name of God, otherwise known as the Shemhamphorasch.

At any rate, this fact doesn't remove nothing to the concrete possibility that the author of the Toledoth Yesch had represented the origins of the pre-christian cult of Jesus.

[Joseph D. L.]

You should check out Schonfield's According To The Hebrews.

Anyway, one contention I have is this:

Yeshu later went to the Jerusalem Temple and learned the letters of God's ineffable name...

If the Toledot Yeshu is reconciling ben Notzri and ben Stada/Pandira (two different figures from two different periods, in my opinion), than the above is referring to ben Stada bringing back magic incarnations through tattoos or cuts made into his skin. The problem...

YESHU BEN STADA LEARNED THIS IN EGYPT. (Obviously).

This implies that it was actually in the Temple in Alexandria wherein he learned the name of God and etched it onto his flesh, afterwards returning to Palestine and performing "miracles".

Yeshu ben Stada may also not be an actual name, but a prophetic title, mocked and ridiculed in rabbinical sources.

Indeed, Hurtado is either ignorant or misinformed, but [if you're familiar with Huller] the Angel who wrestled with Jacob and appeared in the burning bush was identified as Ishu, later configured as Isu, and is confirmed by Justin to be the same as Jesus. There isn't too much of a difference between the name/titles of Yeshu (ישו) and the divine figure Ishu (איש). But I also think Carrier has misappropriated Philo's interpretation of the High Priest in Zechariah in alluding to Jesus/Ishu. At least that's how I see it.

[Giuseppe]

Hurtado thinks that he is going to confute Price and Carrier's claim that the Patriarchs are mythical figures, when he writes:

Most OT scholars likely think that the Patriarchs are *legendary* figures, not “mythical”.

The point is that the biblical hero Joshua was just the euhemerization of YHWH himself!

So Rylands:

in Judges vi. In verse 12 it is said that an angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon ; then in verse 14 we find these words “ And Jehovah [translated in A.V. “ the Lord ”] turned to him.” Evidently in the primitive version of the story it was Jehovah himself who came to Gideon.

(Did Jesus Ever Live?, p. 37, n.1)

So note the evolution:

“ And Jehovah [translated in A.V. “ the Lord ”] appeared to him.”

...is corrected in:

“ And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him.”

...the ''Angel of Lord'' being later the mere man Joshua.

[MrMacSon]

I'm not sure Hurtado has engaged fully with Carrier's argument/s, which are centered on Philo's references to some passages in Zechariah. Carrier overstates his case, which is of course inductive, but it's not a bad argument [if reworked to be less direct than Carrier makes it].

Hurtado strongly indicates he hasn't read On the Historicity of Jesus when he says -

Advertisements for his book refer to the “assumption” that Jesus lived, but among scholars it’s not an assumption—it’s the fairly settled judgement of scholars based on 250 years of hard work on that and related questions.

You don’t have to read the 700+ pages of Carrier’s book, however, to see if it’s persuasive ...

[edited] Hurtado only mentions Philo in an endnote [iv] -

Carrier refers to Philo, but Philo never mentions an archangel named “Jesus”. Philo makes a theological/conceptual distinction between the ineffable God and God revealed, and calls the latter God’s “Logos,” but he makes it clear that they don’t really comprise two separate beings.

Hurtado is being disingenuous.

[Joseph D. L.]

Also look into YHWH Hakaton, the lesser YHWH, who appears in extra biblical writings.

"Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven." ~ Gen 19:24

This verse makes it appear as there are in fact two YHWHs.

The name may vary from Enoch, Moses; Metatron, and Michael; Yahoel to Uriel; but it is contingent to the belief that there were two powers, or two names, in heaven.

[MrMacSon]

fwiw (slightly re-ordered -ie. sentences moved around)-

Yeshua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

The Hebrew spelling Yeshua (ישוע) appears in some later books of the Hebrew Bible. Once for Joshua the son of Nun, and 28 times for Joshua the High Priest and (KJV "Jeshua") and other priests called Jeshua – although these same priests are also given the spelling Joshua in 11 further instances in the books of Haggai and Zechariah. It differs from the usual Hebrew Bible spelling of Joshua (יְהוֹשֻׁעַ y'hoshuaʿ), found 218 times in the Hebrew Bible, in the absence of the consonant he ה and placement of the semivowel vav ו after, not before, the consonant shin ש.

The name Yeshua is also used in Israelite Hebrew historical texts to refer to other Joshuas recorded in Greek texts such as Jesus ben Ananias and Jesus ben Sira.[4]

It also differs from the Hebrew spelling Yeshu (ישו) ... used in most secular contexts in Modern Hebrew to refer to Jesus of Nazareth, although the Hebrew spelling Yeshua (ישוע) is generally used in translations of the New Testament into Hebrew[3], and used by Hebrew-speaking Christians in Israel.

Yeshu (ישו‎ in the Hebrew alphabet) is the name of an individual or individuals mentioned in Rabbinic literature.[1] ... The name Yeshu is also used in other sources before and after the completion of the Babylonian Talmud.

Talmud and Tosefta
The earliest undisputed occurrences of the term Yeshu are found in five anecdotes in the Tosefta (c 200 CE) and Babylonian Talmud (c 500 CE). The anecdotes appear in the Babylonian Talmud during the course of broader discussions on various religious or legal topics. The Venice edition of the Jerusalem Talmud contains the name Yeshu ...

Foote and Wheeler considered that the name "Yeshu" was simply a shortened form of the name "Yehoshua" or Joshua.[16]

in the Septuagint and Greek language Jewish texts such as the writings of Josephus and Philo of Alexandria, Jesus is the standard Greek translation of the common Hebrew name Yehoshua יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Joshua), Greek having lost the h sound, as well as of the shortened form Yeshua יֵשׁוּעַ‎ which originated in the Second Temple period. Jesus was also used for the name Hoshea in the Septuagint in one of the three places where it referred to Joshua son of Nun.)

Tannaim and Amoraim
The Tannaim and Amoraim who recorded the accounts in the Talmud and Tosefta use the term Yeshu as a designation in Sanhedrin 103a and Berakhot 17b in place of King Manasseh's real name. Sanhedrin 107b uses it for a Hasmonean era individual who in an earlier account (Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 2:2) is anonymous. In Gittin 56b, 57a it is used for one of three foreign enemies of Israel, the other two being from past and present with Yeshu representing a third not identified with any past or present event.

Early Jewish commentators (Rishonim)
These accounts of Celsus and the Toldoth Yeshu do not form part of Orthodox Jewish interpretation. The only classical Jewish commentator to equate Yeshu with Jesus was the Rishon (early commentator) Abraham Ibn Daud who held the view that the Jesus of Christianity had been derived from the figure of Yeshu the student of ben Perachiah¹. Ibn Daud was nevertheless aware that such an equation contradicted known chronology, but argued that the Gospel accounts were in error.^[25]

• 25 G. Cohen, A critical Edition with a Translation and Notes of the Book of Tradition (Sefer haKabbalah) by Abraham Ibn Daud

Other Rishonim, namely Rabbi Jacob ben Meir (Rabbeinu Tam), Nahmanides, and Jehiel ben Joseph of Paris[2] explicitly repudiated the equation of the Yeshu of the Talmud and Jesus. Menachem Meiri observed that the epithet Ha-Notzri attached to Yeshu in many instances was a late gloss.

¹ It would be interesting to know exactly what is meant by "the figure of Yeshu the student of ben Perachiah"


This seems to be significant commentary -

Critical scholarship
Modern critical scholars debate whether Yeshu does or does not refer to the historical Jesus, a view seen in several 20th century encyclopedia articles including The Jewish Encyclopedia,[35] Joseph Dan in the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1972, 1997).[36] and the Encyclopedia Hebraica (Israel).

R. Travers Herford (1903, pp. 37–38) based his work on the understanding that the term refers to Jesus, and it was also the understanding of Joseph Klausner.[6] They agree that the accounts offer little independent or accurate historical evidence about Jesus.[6] Herford argues that writers of the Talmud and Tosefta had only vague knowledge of Jesus and embellished the accounts to discredit him while disregarding chronology. Klausner distinguishes between core material in the accounts, which he argues are not about Jesus, and the references to "Yeshu" which he sees as additions spuriously associating the accounts with Jesus. Recent scholars in the same vein include Peter Schäfer,[26] Steven Bayme, and Dr. David C. Kraemer.

Recently, some scholars have argued that Yeshu is a literary device, and that the Yeshu stories provide a more complex view of early Rabbinic-Christian interactions ... the Amoraim and Tannaim sought to establish Rabbinic Judaism as the normative form of Judaism. Like the Rabbis, early Christians claimed to be working within Biblical traditions to provide new interpretations of Jewish laws and values². The sometimes blurry boundary between the Rabbis and early Christians provided an important site for distinguishing between legitimate debate and 'heresy'.

Scholars like Jeffrey Rubenstein and Daniel Boyarin argue that it was through the Yeshu narratives that Rabbis confronted this blurry boundary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu#Cri ... cholarship

eta: ² This is likely, of course, but I'm not sure I've seen reference to where early Christians claimed that ...

Iesous is also likely to be in the mix ...

[MrMacSon]

in the Septuagint and Greek language Jewish texts such as the writings of Josephus and Philo of Alexandria, Jesus is the standard Greek translation of the common Hebrew name Yehoshua יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Joshua), Greek having lost the h sound, as well as of the shortened form Yeshua יֵשׁוּעַ‎ which originated in the Second Temple period. Jesus was also used for the name Hoshea in the Septuagint in one of the three places where it referred to Joshua son of Nun.)

Tannaim and Amoraim
The Tannaim and Amoraim who recorded the accounts in the Talmud and Tosefta use the term Yeshu as a designation in Sanhedrin 103a and Berakhot 17b in place of King Manasseh's real name. Sanhedrin 107b uses it for a Hasmonean era individual who in an earlier account (Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 2:2) is anonymous. In Gittin 56b, 57a it is used for one of three foreign enemies of Israel, the other two being from past and present with Yeshu representing a third not identified with any past or present event.

Early Jewish commentators (Rishonim)
These accounts of Celsus and the Toldoth Yeshu do not form part of Orthodox Jewish interpretation. The only classical Jewish commentator to equate Yeshu with Jesus was the Rishon (early commentator) Abraham Ibn Daud who held the view that the Jesus of Christianity had been derived from the figure of Yeshu the student of ben Perachiah¹. Ibn Daud was nevertheless aware that such an equation contradicted known chronology, but argued that the Gospel accounts were in error.^[25]

• 25 G. Cohen, A critical Edition with a Translation and Notes of the Book of Tradition (Sefer haKabbalah) by Abraham Ibn Daud

Rabbi Joshua ben Perahiah or Joshua ben Perachya (Hebrew: יהושע בן פרחיה‎‎, Yehoshua Ben Perachia) was Nasi of the Sanhedrin in the latter half of the 2nd century BCE.


He and his colleague Nittai of Arbela were the second of the five pairs (Zugot) of scholars who received and transmitted Jewish tradition (Avot i.6; Haggigah 16a).

At the time of the persecution of the Pharisees by John Hyrcanus (c. 134-104 BCE), Joshua was deposed — a disgrace to which his words in Men. 109b apparently allude. However in Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a it was during the persecutions of Pharisees 88-76 BCE by Alexander Jannaeus, not John Hyrcanus whose persecution he fled. He fled to Alexandria, Egypt, but was recalled to Jerusalem when the persecutions ceased and the Pharisees again triumphed over the Sadducees (Sotah 47a) ...

Only a single halakhah of Joshua's has been preserved (Tosefta Maksh. 3:4). In other traditions he was known in Jewish magical papyri as an exorcist,[9][10] and his name was used in incantations inscribed on magical bowls.[11]

Yeshu
In another tradition he is also the teacher of Yeshu (in some manuscripts of the Talmud), where he and Yeshu flee to Egypt. In other manuscripts his student is Judah ben Tabbai. The account as it appears in the Talmud is as follows:

What was the incident with R. Joshua b. Perahiah? — When King Jannaeus put the Rabbis to death, Simeon b. Shetah was hid by his sister, whilst R. Joshua b. Perahiah fled to Alexandria in Egypt. When there was peace, Simeon b. Shetah sent [this message to him]: 'From me, Jerusalem, the Holy city, to thee Alexandria in Egypt. O my sister, my husband25 dwelleth in thy midst and I abide desolate'.

[R. Joshua] arose and came back and found himself in a certain inn where they paid him great respect. He said: 'How beautiful is this 'aksania'!

Yeshu said to him, 'My master, her eyes are narrow!' He replied to him, 'Wicked person! Is it with such thoughts that thou occupiest thyself!' He sent forth four hundred horns and excommunicated him.

[The disciple] came before him on many occasions, saying 'Receive me'; but he refused to notice him.

One day while [R. Joshua] was reciting the Shema', he came before him. His intention was to receive him and he made a sign to him with his hand, but the disciple thought he was repelling him. So he went and set up a brick and worshipped it. [R. Joshua] said to him, 'Repent'; but he answered him, 'Thus have I received from thee that whoever sinned and caused others to sin is deprived of the power of doing penitence'.

A Master has said: The disciple practised magic and led Israel astray.[12]

Dunn (1992) considers this to be a story of Jesus from the late Amoraic period, which contains old polemical elements that were already current in New Testament times.[13] His story is parallel to that of Elisha and Gehazi.[14] Gustaf Dalman, Joachim Jeremias (1935, 1960),[15] and others[16] do not consider the Yeshu mentioned as Joshua's pupil to be Jesus.

[MrMacSon]

JESHU'S CONTEMPORARIES.

King Janneus, in whose reign Jeshu is placed, was a Sadducee. He persecuted the Rabbis, and Joshua ben Perachiah, the President of the Sanhedrim, fled to Egypt, leaving Simeon ben Shetach as his deputy. With respect to this persecution, Rabbi Wise writes--"The Pharisees being persecuted in the days of Alexander Jannai, the number of Nazarites increased. Three hundred of them came at one time to Jerusalem to fulfil their vows. Simon [ben Shetach] was enabled so to construe the law that it was unnecessary for one half of them to make the prescribed sacrifices."

Can these Nazarites have been the Nazarenes referred to in the Jeshu story? Such a confusion of names is more than possible, for the author of our first Gospel has actually perpetrated it. He sends Jesus home to Nazareth to fulfill the prophecy "He shall be called a Nazarene." But the only prophecy of that kind in the Old Testament is in the angel's diction of the birth of Samson, who was neither to shave nor to drink strong drink, but to be "a Nazarite. from the womb." The Nazarite was an ancient teetotaller, and had no connexion whatever with Nazareth.

On the death of Janneus, his wife succeeded him on the throne. Josephus gives her name as Alexandra. She may, however, have had the second name of Helena. She was perhaps the Queen Helena of the Jeshu story; for the Martini version represents this personage as "governing all Israel," a function which was never performed by Helena of Adiabene nor by Helena the mother of Constantine. It is, however, quite possible, as we have said in a footnote, that the tradition confused her name with that of the celebrated proselyte.

Simeon ben Shetach was of great repute among the Jews, being called a second Ezra. He restored the traditional law, and made attendance at public schools compulsory. He is said to have refused to save his own son, condemned on the testimony of false witnesses, because it had been done according to the letter of the law.

http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/toldoth/tj5ap.htm

[Ben C. Smith]

All know the story of the Toledoth Yeschu about Jesus.

For example, so Wiki:

Yeshu later went to the Jerusalem Temple and learned the letters of God’s ineffable name (one could do anything desired by them). He gathered 310 young men and proclaimed himself the Messiah, claiming Isaiah’s “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son” and other prophets prophesied about him. Using God’s name he healed a lame man, they worshipped him as the Messiah. The Sanhedrin decided to arrest him, and sent messengers to invite him to Jerusalem. They pretended to be his disciples to trick him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

So according to this later story, Jesus is accused to have stolen the Magic Name of God.

Now, it cannot be a coincidence to know who possessed the Magic Name of God, according to Exodus 23:20-23:

20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out

Obviously that Angel is Joshua, i.e. 'YHWH-saves'.

(for me it is already a surprising coincidence the occurrences of name of God in his name + the execution of the same actions attributed to that angel).

Sometimes, Giuseppe, you do turn up a gem. This is very interesting.