Peter and the searching of the scriptures.

[Ben C. Smith]

These two texts remind me of each other:

1 Peter 1.10-12: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.

From Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 6.15: Now all the prophets who foretold the advent of the Lord and with it the holy mysteries accompanying it were persecuted and killed. As also the Lord himself, in explaining the scriptures to them, and his disciples who preached the word like him, and subsequently to his life used parables. Whence also Peter in his preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: "But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find his advent and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and taking up into heaven previous to the capture/foundation of Jerusalem, thus written. These are all the things that he must suffer, and what should be after him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting him." And after a little again he draws the inference that the scriptures owed their origin to the divine providence, asserting as follows: "For we know that God enjoined these things, and we say nothing apart from the scriptures."

Is there anything to the fact that these similar statements are both attributed to Peter? Are there other statements like this attributed to him somewhere? What other statements are there like this, period?

[MrMacSon]

I had Adv Marc IV open on a web-page so searched Peter. This is all that I found with reference to Peter and prophets -

Adv. Marc. IV, 34
"...you have here, O heretics, during your present lifetime, a warning that Moses and the prophets declare one only God, the Creator, and His only Christ, and how that both awards of everlasting punishment and eternal salvation rest with Him, the one only God, who kills and who makes alive. Well, the admonition, says Marcion, of our God from heaven has commanded us not to hear Moses and the prophets, but Christ; Hear Him is the command. This is true enough. For the apostles had by that time sufficiently heard Moses and the prophets, for they had followed Christ, being persuaded by Moses and the prophets. For even Peter would not have been able to say, 'You are the Christ', unless he had beforehand heard and believed Moses and the prophets, by whom alone Christ had been hitherto announced."

Also -

"For truly I say to you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it; and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:17).

2 Peter 1:20-21
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

[MrMacSon]

.
If one adds some different emphasis to 1 Peter 1.10-12 -

.
As to this salvation, the prophets (who prophesied of the grace that would come to you) made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating, as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.
.

In v.11 there is (1) 'the Spirit of Christ'; (2) 'the spirit of Christ in them', ie. seemingly in the prophets; (3) He; and (4) 'the sufferings of Christ' --- again, seemingly different manifestations of an entity, or different notions or senses of an entity.

[GakuseiDon]

I'm not sure how useful these are. They are not attributed to Peter, but other statements regarding looking in ancient Scriptures to 'find' Jesus as justification for belief:

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philidelphians, Ch 8, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

• And I exhort you to do nothing out of strife, but according to the doctrine of Christ. When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.

Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch 53, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

• For with what reason should we believe of a crucified man that He is the first-born of the unbegotten God, and Himself will pass judgment on the whole human race, unless we had found testimonies concerning Him published before He came and was born as man

Acts of the Apostles, Ch 17, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... s-kjv.html

• 1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
  2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
  3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
  ...
  10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
  11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
  12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Acts also has Peter using Scriptures when describing Christ:

• Acts 1:
  15. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
  16. Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
  
  Acts 3:
  12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
  ...
  18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
  19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
  20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
  21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
  22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
  23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
  24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
  25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

[Ben C. Smith]

GDon and MrMacSon, that all seems quite relevant. Thanks!

And here is this:

Clementine Homilies 18.13b: The statement also, 'to whomsoever the Son may wish to reveal Him,' is also correct; for He, being the Son from the beginning, was alone appointed to give the revelation to those to whom He wishes to give it. And thus the first man (protoplast) Adam must have heard of Him; and Enoch, who pleased God, must have known Him; and Noah, the righteous one, must have become acquainted with Him; and Abraham His friend must have understood Him; and Isaac must have perceived Him; and Jacob, who wrestled with Him, must have believed in Him; and the revelation must have been given to all among the people who were worthy.

[DCHindley]

These two texts remind me of each other:

1 Peter 1.10-12: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.

From Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 6.15: Now all the prophets who foretold the advent of the Lord and with it the holy mysteries accompanying it were persecuted and killed. As also the Lord himself, in explaining the scriptures to them, and his disciples who preached the word like him, and subsequently to his life used parables. Whence also Peter in his preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: "But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find his advent and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and taking up into heaven previous to the capture/foundation of Jerusalem, thus written. These are all the things that he must suffer, and what should be after him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting him." And after a little again he draws the inference that the scriptures owed their origin to the divine providence, asserting as follows: "For we know that God enjoined these things, and we say nothing apart from the scriptures."

Is there anything to the fact that these similar statements are both attributed to Peter? Are there other statements like this attributed to him somewhere? What other statements are there like this, period?

But isn't the first suggesting that the prophets had attempted to express things that later Christians came to believe had been predicted about Jesus? It is sort of like the prophets devised "Bible Code" type encoding of truths that were invisible at first but later discernible to the true believer when Jesus was arrested, tortured and humiliated and then executed by means of a stake. Really?

This is somewhat, and significantly different, than simply saying that Christians searched scriptures and were able to find passages which could be twisted to refer to Jesus. Lots of sects (Christians, Gnostics, the writers of the DSS peshers, etc.) have successfully done such "text mining." Only very recently (I encountered them in the mid 1970s) there were Fundamentalist Christian sects who found passages that they believed predicted there would be a tribulation before (or after) the rapture of the saints (opinions varied), including a war of Armageddon between the Soviet Union assisted by the European Union, and the forces of God (usually modern state of Israel), which they even went as far as to think would involve tank armor made of compressed wood that could burn, and all sorts of things, to "fulfill" statements in scriptures that they had teased out with great diligence.

If they want to believe that prophets had carefully planned their statements, like Nostradamus supposedly did with his quatrains, then who are we to dissuade them? They can't be dissuaded, because they are "true believers."

All true ...

DCH

[Ben C. Smith]

These two texts remind me of each other:

1 Peter 1.10-12: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.

From Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 6.15: Now all the prophets who foretold the advent of the Lord and with it the holy mysteries accompanying it were persecuted and killed. As also the Lord himself, in explaining the scriptures to them, and his disciples who preached the word like him, and subsequently to his life used parables. Whence also Peter in his preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: "But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find his advent and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and taking up into heaven previous to the capture/foundation of Jerusalem, thus written. These are all the things that he must suffer, and what should be after him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting him." And after a little again he draws the inference that the scriptures owed their origin to the divine providence, asserting as follows: "For we know that God enjoined these things, and we say nothing apart from the scriptures."

Is there anything to the fact that these similar statements are both attributed to Peter? Are there other statements like this attributed to him somewhere? What other statements are there like this, period?

But isn't the first suggesting that the prophets had attempted to express things that later Christians came to believe had been predicted about Jesus?

Yes, I think so. And I think the second is saying much the same thing.

The way you are phrasing the question makes me wonder what you are driving at, though.

[Charles Wilson]

And here is this:

Clementine Homilies 18.13b: for He, being the Son from the beginning...

Ben --

1. This should probably go into the "Jesus Exists" Thread. It is a variation on the Ontological Argument: "No Being this Powerful could merely come into existence at some point in time. Therefore, He always existed. Therefore, Jesus exists."

2. Note how different this is from the Plain Physical Stories found in the Gospels:

Luke 9: 51 - 62 (RSV):

[51] When the days drew near for him to be received up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem.
[52] And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him;
[53] but the people would not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem.
[54] And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, "Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?"
[55] But he turned and rebuked them.
[56] And they went on to another village.
[57] As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."
[58] And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
[59] To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
[60] But he said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
[61] Another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home."
[62] Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

This is a bit opaque, given that "Jesus" created all things, given John 1.

[18] Now it happened that as he was praying alone the disciples were with him; and he asked them, "Who do the people say that I am?"
[19] And they answered, "John the Baptist; but others say, Eli'jah; and others, that one of the old prophets has risen."
[20] And he said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "The Christ of God."

Oh, RILLY?

The reconciliation of ALL of these problems must be dealt with after the Construction of the NT and it occurs over centuries. So...Why did "Jesus" have to walk at all?

John 6: 21 (RSV):

[21] Then they were glad to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.

"Jesus", by whom all things were created, didn't have to walk at all. Neither did Peter have to look in "The Scriptures" to find a "Jesus". Your question, Ben, operates on 2 levels. What "Human" in the scriptures would have pointed to a "Son of God" (by words or deeds) that created all things GIVEN that the human known in the Gospels performed "mere" temporal miracles?

[DCHindley]

But isn't the first suggesting that the prophets had attempted to express things that later Christians came to believe had been predicted about Jesus?

Yes, I think so. And I think the second is saying much the same thing.

The way you are phrasing the question makes me wonder what you are driving at, though.

One says "We were despondent and looked real hard at the scriptures, seeking solace. And, lo! We found things in the books of the prophets that foretold what had happened to Jesus!" That I understand. The realization was that they were at first mistaken, as what they expected did not happen. The found prophetic passages explain what had "really" been the case.

But that begs the response of others: "You sure are finding lots of things! Too many things, if you ask me. I think maybe you find what you want, eh?"

"But," comes the response, "it was not fortuitous at all, or wishful thinking on our part. In fact, the prophets knew all about it, and God inspired them to plant those statements, in ways that only seem innocent and directed to their own times, to be discovered in their good time by the saints who God has chosen!"

The first kind of statement is one of discovery. The second kind is an "explanation" that really "explains away" inconvenient things. To me they are like apples and oranges. Is that supposed to be significant? I don't know, but I think that whatever solutions we try should recognize that these are two different things.

DCH