An interesting passage from the Clermont text of Irenaeus
For this gift of God has been entrusted to the Church, as breath was to the first created man, for this purpose, that all the members receiving it may be vivified; and the exchange with Christ (commutatio Christi) has been distributed throughout it, that is, the Holy Spirit, the earnest of incorruption, the means of confirming our faith, and the ladder of ascent to God. (3.24.1)
I wonder whether there is some doctrinal reason the chiasms are in the text of Mark. Maybe it had something to do or as a reinforcement that we exchange places with Jesus.
The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 18922
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
Ben --
From Turton:
"Here is the structure of this pericope:
A. And his mother and his brothers came;
___B. and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
_____C. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
_____C. And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
___B. And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."
A. Again he began to teach beside the sea. "
I am not defending Turton here. He may be correct. I dunno. I note the awkwardness, however. Something has been altered and then smoothed for a different Intent. Turton states that all dialogue is considered to be one segment in the Chiasm. It is this point that allows him to assert Chapter 4:1 is the End/Transition of the Chiasm. FWIW, "Whoever does the will..." is Transvaluation, giving a New Religion Moral to a Descriptive Fragment from the Original, Non-New Relgion Source. YMMV.
If True then what I wrote is a Fragment from a different Chiasm:
A. Standing
___B. Mothers and Brothers
___B'. Mothers and Brothers
A' Sitting
I could accept "And he began to teach beside the sea..." as an "A.' => A." if the Original Source (Non-Roman) was Chiastic and I have no guarantee that that is the case. Mark has the Roman Court behind him and he has Chiastic Structure for the Empty Tomb. How many Redactors to Mark were there? Too many to count in a Document that traded hands among those few who could read and write.
So...The Structure offered is nice and tight with no central single section: A. - B. - B' - A'. (No pun intended). It is not A. - B. - C. - B'. - A'.. It is a fragment.
***
It's good to agree on something. Verses 20 - 27 may be interpreted as a POLITICAL Story from You-Know-Where. I see verse 27 as an argument against the Romans. The Insurrectionists are arguing that the Priesthood is not captured by Satan but is standing in expectation that God will stand with them. "The Herodians are not your friends either...".
YMMV.
The reason I insert this here is that it gives reason to accept that verse 27 is part of the Original. If verse 27 was appended to the previous verses (a good possibility) then the point of the Passage is dulled in respect to "Satan divided...". Perhaps there was another verse that modified "Strong Man". The Hasmoneans arguing for a RE-Unified Priesthood and King, something Jannaeus fought for. Several Possibilities that existed before the New Religion.
Mebbe this is the "Criterion of Disagreeing People" (as opposed to "Disagreeable people..."). If people who disagree on many things about Mark find a Passage that they both agree is Odd then the chances that the Odd Passage is not Original to Mark are increased.
'Preciate the comments, Ben.
Thanx
From Turton:
"Here is the structure of this pericope:
A. And his mother and his brothers came;
___B. and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
_____C. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
_____C. And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
___B. And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."
A. Again he began to teach beside the sea. "
I am not defending Turton here. He may be correct. I dunno. I note the awkwardness, however. Something has been altered and then smoothed for a different Intent. Turton states that all dialogue is considered to be one segment in the Chiasm. It is this point that allows him to assert Chapter 4:1 is the End/Transition of the Chiasm. FWIW, "Whoever does the will..." is Transvaluation, giving a New Religion Moral to a Descriptive Fragment from the Original, Non-New Relgion Source. YMMV.
If True then what I wrote is a Fragment from a different Chiasm:
A. Standing
___B. Mothers and Brothers
___B'. Mothers and Brothers
A' Sitting
I could accept "And he began to teach beside the sea..." as an "A.' => A." if the Original Source (Non-Roman) was Chiastic and I have no guarantee that that is the case. Mark has the Roman Court behind him and he has Chiastic Structure for the Empty Tomb. How many Redactors to Mark were there? Too many to count in a Document that traded hands among those few who could read and write.
So...The Structure offered is nice and tight with no central single section: A. - B. - B' - A'. (No pun intended). It is not A. - B. - C. - B'. - A'.. It is a fragment.
***
It's good to agree on something. Verses 20 - 27 may be interpreted as a POLITICAL Story from You-Know-Where. I see verse 27 as an argument against the Romans. The Insurrectionists are arguing that the Priesthood is not captured by Satan but is standing in expectation that God will stand with them. "The Herodians are not your friends either...".
YMMV.
The reason I insert this here is that it gives reason to accept that verse 27 is part of the Original. If verse 27 was appended to the previous verses (a good possibility) then the point of the Passage is dulled in respect to "Satan divided...". Perhaps there was another verse that modified "Strong Man". The Hasmoneans arguing for a RE-Unified Priesthood and King, something Jannaeus fought for. Several Possibilities that existed before the New Religion.
Mebbe this is the "Criterion of Disagreeing People" (as opposed to "Disagreeable people..."). If people who disagree on many things about Mark find a Passage that they both agree is Odd then the chances that the Odd Passage is not Original to Mark are increased.
'Preciate the comments, Ben.
Thanx
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 18922
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
The subtitle of the Marcion's Antitheses might sound like something chiastic:
Nam hae sunt Antitheses Marcionis, id est contrariae oppositiones, quae conantur discordiam evangelii cum lege committere, ut ex diversitate sententiarum utriusque instrumenti diversitatem quoque argumententur deorum. [1.20]
Nam hae sunt Antitheses Marcionis, id est contrariae oppositiones, quae conantur discordiam evangelii cum lege committere, ut ex diversitate sententiarum utriusque instrumenti diversitatem quoque argumententur deorum. [1.20]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 18922
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
Another interesting point (I hope). If you think about what the corresponding Aramaic terminology would be to ἀντιμεταβολή the answer seems to be (at least to me) something like קבלא, קבלה
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: The chiastic structure of Mark 3.31-35.
Ben --
I looked at 4: 1 as an accurate Chiasm Ending/Entry Point. To quote Turton again:
A. And his mother and his brothers came;
___B. and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
_____C. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
_____C. And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
___B. And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."
A. Again he began to teach beside the sea. "
This is still lacking for an "A" entrance into the Chiasm. I looked above this passage and I see that the only entrance for "sea" is:
Mark 1:
[14] Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
[15] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."
[16] And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
This is very rough and I am not going to make attempt to formulate something now.
I note merely that "...passing along by the sea [of Galilee]..." provides a nice match for "...Again he began teaching by the sea..." with coming and going and people who accept "Jesus" and a father who is left with the boat (in the verses that follow). The followers Simon and Andrew are mending their nets, perhaps indicative of a lack of success in "fishing for men" that "Jesus" automatically has.
See anything of interest here?
I looked at 4: 1 as an accurate Chiasm Ending/Entry Point. To quote Turton again:
A. And his mother and his brothers came;
___B. and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
_____C. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
_____C. And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
___B. And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."
A. Again he began to teach beside the sea. "
This is still lacking for an "A" entrance into the Chiasm. I looked above this passage and I see that the only entrance for "sea" is:
Mark 1:
[14] Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
[15] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."
[16] And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
This is very rough and I am not going to make attempt to formulate something now.
I note merely that "...passing along by the sea [of Galilee]..." provides a nice match for "...Again he began teaching by the sea..." with coming and going and people who accept "Jesus" and a father who is left with the boat (in the verses that follow). The followers Simon and Andrew are mending their nets, perhaps indicative of a lack of success in "fishing for men" that "Jesus" automatically has.
See anything of interest here?