'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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DCHindley
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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Jax wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:04 am From his website I see that he relies on Slavonic Josephus for some of his conclusions (unless I misunderstand him), but isn't Slavonic Josephus considered not usable as a source for a first century Jesus?
For a while scholars like Robert Eisler (1930s) and others had entertained the idea that some of the unique stuff to be found in the Slavonic version of the War but not in the Greek, may be due to the influence of an Aramaic work Josephus created to dissuade the Jews of Mesopotamia, and I suppose their Parthian rulers, from helping revive the vanquished rebellion in Judea. No trace of the original Aramaic has survived. We only know it probably described in vivid and probably gory detail how the Romans reduced the Judean strongholds in Galilee and Judea, especially Jerusalem. However, because it served as the basis for the Greek War, it may have also provided some background to how the situation degraded so far, but again we are just guessing. Perhaps Unterbrink thinks some of it is relevant.

However, two researchers (Leeming & Leeming), had since proceeded to compare accounts of things found in common in the War, Antiquities and Josephus' own Autobiography, AND the Slavonic translation of the War, and concluded that the more likely source for the variant accounts (Slavonic War versus the Greek War, Ant & Life) was semi-pagan feudal lords in the Russias, who liked the War for its descriptions of battle tactics and the politics that drove them on. They speculated their own speculations and, since the Slavonic War is not really a translation but a paraphrase, they wrote them into the narrative or left out the boring parts (to them). So, no room was found for an Aramaic version for the War.

One of our forum members (MH), who has a copy of Leeming & Leeming's book, still advocates for Slavonic War because she feels it supports her belief that the last Hasmonean royal claimant, Antigonus the son of Aristobulus II, was the figure upon which the NT authors based their portrait of Jesus Christ.

DCH
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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DCHindley wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:45 am I've tried to get Daniel into a conversation (I think it was on FRDB) when he posted a link to the book, but he never responded to my post. I really don't know why Unterbrink zeroed in on "Judah the Galilean".

Judah the Galilean, IIRC, is somewhat of a composite figure based on both the leader of a rebel faction in the days of Archelaeus, and on speculations about the lineage of a couple of rebel bandit chiefs caught and executed between Jesus' time and the rebellion of 66 CE. The common link seems to be "Zealots." This subject is investigated by Cecil Roth, about whom John2 and I had a discussion (there are links to articles by Roth in those threads). Some of the more recent authorities on Josephus (S Mason, etc.) have also look at this angle, and "demythologize" the figures a bit, as technically Josephus does not use the term "zealot" except to describe a specific faction in revolutionary Jerusalem of the 60's-70s CE.

I guess that D. U. thinks these legends were later attributed to a Jesus who is presented as living in the early 30's CE, so a bit of a time shift into the future may be required here.

Alternatively, Frans V zeroes in on figures in the first Judean revolt against Rome, which he definitely thinks were projected backwards to the Jesus of the 30's CE.

All this forward and then backwards motion is making me dizzy! :cheeky:

DCH
Hm. I was under the strong impression that Judas the Galilean was un-composite and un-legendary, using mainly Josephus, who cites him as the founder of the 'Fourth Philosophy', who first came to notice in 6AD. He gets quite a bit of coverage in Josephus, as do his sons and grandsons.

What's missing (and Unterbrink suggests this is significant) is a detailed account of his death.

That said, his death (after capture) is very briefly referenced in 'Wars', but only by his likely inclusion in the phrase 'the two rabbis' (were executed). His death is not specifically mentioned in 'Antiquities'. Unterbrink contends that the TF originally referred to the execution of Judas (in around 21CE). He makes a plausible case for re-dating Pilate's tenure while arguing for this execution date.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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Jax wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:04 am From his website I see that he relies on Slavonic Josephus for some of his conclusions (unless I misunderstand him), but isn't Slavonic Josephus considered not usable as a source for a first century Jesus?
I myself have reservations about his use of Slavonic Josephus. The odd thing is that it (and a few other texts cited by Unterbrink) do sort of 'uncannily' tally with his revised timeline.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald »

Jax wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:46 am Sounds like it might have elements in common with A Shift in Time by Lena Einhorn and James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman.

Einhorn also proposes that the Gospels are fiction, using Josephus as a guide and backdating the material.
After a quick google of the Eihhorn book, it seems the approach is similar, to (a) consider that 'Jesus' was not a mr Nice Guy to the extent that he was likely some sort of militant, (b) whose story was whitewashed by history and (c) to use Josephus to construct a plausible alternate timeline.

Unfortunately, she proposes that the relevant events happened 20 years later than is normally accepted, whereas Unterbrink goes backwards, about 12 years. :)

Imo, we should generally beware the potential pitfalls of parallellism.
Last edited by archibald on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:37 am He comes up now and then, but no9t much discussion has come of it.

DCH
He visited Secular Cafe a few years ago and I had a prolonged 1-to-1 discussion with him. At that time, I was very sceptical and so the discussion mainly consisted of me throwing, or trying to throw, little wrenches into his spokes.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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archibald wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:32 am
Jax wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:46 am Sounds like it might have elements in common with A Shift in Time by Lena Einhorn and James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman.

Einhorn also proposes that the Gospels are fiction, using Josephus as a guide and backdating the material.
After a quick google of the Eihhorn book, it seems the approach is similar, to (a) consider that 'Jesus' was not a mr Nice Guy to the extent that he was likely some sort of militant, (b) whose story was whitewashed by history and (c) to use Josephus to construct a plausible alternate timeline.

Unfortunately, she proposes that the relevant events happened 20 years later than is normally accepted, whereas Unterbrink goes backwards, about 12 years. :)

Imo, we should generally beware the potential pitfalls of parallellism.
Try her (Einhorn's) book. While I didn't agree with her conclusions, I found her book readable and interesting. She has some very relevant observations worth considering IMHO.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by MrMacSon »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:45 am
Judah the Galilean, IIRC, is somewhat of a composite figure1 based on both the leader of a rebel faction in the days of Archelaeus, and on speculations about the lineage of a couple of rebel bandit chiefs caught and executed between Jesus' time and the rebellion of 66 CE. The common link seems to be "Zealots." This subject is investigated by Cecil Roth, about whom John2 and I had a discussion (there are links to articles by Roth in those threads). Some of the more recent authorities on Josephus (S Mason, etc.) have also look at this angle, and "demythologize" the figures a bit, as technically Josephus does not use the term "zealot" except to describe a specific faction in revolutionary Jerusalem of the 60's-70s CE.
archibald wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:21 am
Hm. I was under the strong impression that Judas the Galilean was un-composite and un-legendary, using mainly Josephus1, who cites him as the founder of the 'Fourth Philosophy', who first came to notice in 6AD. He gets quite a bit of coverage in Josephus, as do his sons and grandsons.

What's missing (and Unterbrink suggests this is significant) is a detailed account of his death.

That said, his death (after capture) is very briefly referenced in 'Wars', but only by his likely inclusion in the phrase 'the two rabbis' (were executed). His death is not specifically mentioned in 'Antiquities'. Unterbrink contends that the TF originally referred to the execution of Judas (in around 21CE). He makes a plausible case for re-dating Pilate's tenure while arguing for this execution date.

1 The wikipedia entry is interesting in this respect -
Judas and Zealotry

In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus states that Judas, along with Zadok the Pharisee, founded the "fourth sect" of 1st century Judaism [3] (the first three being the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes). Josephus blamed this fourth sect, which he called the Zealots, for the First Jewish–Roman War of 66-73 AD, although some modern scholars [4: Reza Aslan, Zealot] think they were actually different groups: Judas & Zaddok's group of zealots were theocratic nationalists who preached that God alone was the ruler of Israel and urged that no taxes should be paid to Rome.[4]

Several scholars, such as Gunnar Haaland and James S. McLaren, have suggested that Josephus's description of the fourth sect does not reflect historical reality, but was constructed to serve his own interests. According to Haaland, the part covering the sect acts as a transition and an introduction to the excursion concerning the Jewish schools of thought, all of which Josephus presents to portray the majority of Jews in a positive light, and to show that the Jewish War was incited by a radical minority.[5] Similarly, McLaren proposes that Judas and his sect act as scapegoats for the war that are chronologically, geographically and socially removed from the priestly circles of Jerusalem (and Josephus himself).[6]

Josephus does not relate the death of Judas, although he does report that Judas' sons James and Simon were executed by procurator Tiberius Julius Alexander in about 46 AD.[7] He also reports that Menahem ben Judah, one of the early leaders of the Jewish Revolt in 66 AD, was Judas' "son", but some scholars doubt this. Menahem may have been Judas' grandson, however.[8] Menahem's cousin, Eleazar ben Ya'ir, then escaped to the fortress of Masada where he became a leader of the last defenders against the Roman Empire.

Judas is referred to in Acts of the Apostles, in which a speech by Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin, identifies Theudas and Judas as examples of failed Messianic movements, and suggests that the movement emerging in the name of Jesus of Nazareth could similarly fail.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee


4. Gunnar Haaland, 'A Villain and the VIPs: Josephus on Judas the Galilean and the Essenes', in Northern Lights on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Proceedings of the Nordic Qumran Network 2003-2006. Studies on the Text of the Deserts of Judah v. 80; Anders Kolstergaard et al. (ed.). Leiden: Brill, 2009. pp. 241-244.

5. James S. McLaren, 'Constructing Judaean History in the Diaspora: Josephus’s Accounts of Judas', in Negotiating Diaspora: Jewish Strategies in the Roman Empire; John M.G. Barclay (ed.). London: T&T Clark, 2004. pp. 90-108.
.
If McLaren (and perhaps Haaland, depending on what he fully says) are correct in their propositions that Josephus embellished the Zealots and their role in the First Jewish–Roman War of 66-73 AD, and that war really had involved or been centred on the priestly circles of Jerusalem, then the role of conflicts within Judaic 2nd Temple theology, and the likelihood that was ongoing, come into play in the the development of Christianity, as would the key peri- and post- 70 AD Jewish theological figures such as Akiva, the Gamliels, etc.

It would be interesting to know if Reza Aslan read Gunnar Haaland and McLaren. There could be an element of truth to all accounts: Jospehus's, McLaren's and Haalands', and Aslans.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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There is an entry about Judas the Galilean in the Jewish Encylcopedia -

JUDAS THE GALILEAN:
By: Kaufmann Kohler, M. Seligsohn

Leader of a popular revolt against the Romans at the time when the first census was taken in Judea, in which revolt he perished and his followers were dispersed (Acts v. 37); born at Gamala in Gaulonitis (Josephus, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 1). In the year 6 or 7 C.E., when Quirinus came into Judea to take an account of the substance of the Jewsx, Judas, together with Zadok, a Pharisee, headed a large number of Zealots and offered strenuous resistance (ib. xviii. 1, § 6; xx. 5, § 2; idem, "B. J." ii. 8, § 1). Judas proclaimed the Jewish state as a republic recognizing God alone as king and ruler and His laws as supreme. The revolt continued to spread, and in some places serious conflicts ensued. Even after Judas had perished, his spirit continued to animate his followers. Two of his sons, Jacob and Simon, were crucified by Tiberius Alexander ("Ant." xx. 5, § 2); another son, Menahem, became the leader of the Sicarii and for a time had much power; he was finally slain by the high-priestly party ("B. J." ii. 17, §§ 8-9).

Grätz ("Gesch." iii. 251) and Schürer ("Gesch." i. 486) identify Judas the Galilean with Judas, son of Hezekiah the Zealot, who, according to Josephus ("Ant." xvii. 10, § 5; "B. J." ii. 4, § 1), led a revolt in the time of Quintilius Varus. He took possession of the arsenal of Sepphoris, armed hisfollowers, who were in great numbers, and soon became the terror of the Romans.

Bibliography:
Grätz, Gesch. 3d ed., iii. 260, 364;
Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., i. 420, passim.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... e-galilean


[ x is there really a non-biblical account of that??]
.

and at Livius.org, including the passages from Josephus, Acts, and reference to the revolt being absent from 'the catalogue of armed interventions by the Syrian governor' of the Roman historian Tacitus [Histories 5.9.]
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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Jax wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:04 am Try her (Einhorn's) book. While I didn't agree with her conclusions, I found her book readable and interesting. She has some very relevant observations worth considering IMHO.
Yes, I think I will. The google books extract is quite generous, which would give me a good-sized taste before I consider shelling out cash. :)

If nothing else, it might be...sobering....to see someone else start from a similar premise (that 'Jesus' was a militant already in the historical texts by another name) and end up going 20 years forward instead of 12 back. It might suggest that the latter is...dare I say....only arbitrarily plausible via parallellism.

As I said, I am finding Unterbrink's ideas about 'Paul' almost more interesting and convincing that his ideas of 'Jesus'. It is of course possible that he is in some ways right about 'Paul' and wrong about 'Jesus'.

And whilst I am attracted, for a variety of reasons, to the idea that Jesus was a militant, it is of course possible that he wasn't, that he was something of an anomaly in his context, a mainly peaceable man, about whom the stories contain a lot of truth.

It's also possible, of course, that he never existed at all, that he was fully and completely invented and 'mythical'. This is not my favourite type of thesis, I must admit, again for a variety of reasons, but one can't rule it out, I think, because detecting the difference between 'mythologised' and 'wholly mythical' is not easy.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:52 am There is an entry about Judas the Galilean in the Jewish Encylcopedia -

JUDAS THE GALILEAN:
By: Kaufmann Kohler, M. Seligsohn

Leader of a popular revolt against the Romans at the time when the first census was taken in Judea, in which revolt he perished and his followers were dispersed (Acts v. 37); born at Gamala in Gaulonitis (Josephus, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 1). In the year 6 or 7 C.E., when Quirinus came into Judea to take an account of the substance of the Jewsx, Judas, together with Zadok, a Pharisee, headed a large number of Zealots and offered strenuous resistance (ib. xviii. 1, § 6; xx. 5, § 2; idem, "B. J." ii. 8, § 1). Judas proclaimed the Jewish state as a republic recognizing God alone as king and ruler and His laws as supreme. The revolt continued to spread, and in some places serious conflicts ensued. Even after Judas had perished, his spirit continued to animate his followers. Two of his sons, Jacob and Simon, were crucified by Tiberius Alexander ("Ant." xx. 5, § 2); another son, Menahem, became the leader of the Sicarii and for a time had much power; he was finally slain by the high-priestly party ("B. J." ii. 17, §§ 8-9).

Grätz ("Gesch." iii. 251) and Schürer ("Gesch." i. 486) identify Judas the Galilean with Judas, son of Hezekiah the Zealot, who, according to Josephus ("Ant." xvii. 10, § 5; "B. J." ii. 4, § 1), led a revolt in the time of Quintilius Varus. He took possession of the arsenal of Sepphoris, armed hisfollowers, who were in great numbers, and soon became the terror of the Romans.

Bibliography:
Grätz, Gesch. 3d ed., iii. 260, 364;
Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., i. 420, passim.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... e-galilean


[ x is there really a non-biblical account of that??]
.

and at Livius.org, including the passages from Josephus, Acts, and reference to the revolt being absent from 'the catalogue of armed interventions by the Syrian governor' of the Roman historian Tacitus [Histories 5.9.]
Yes, the sources for Judas (including the Jewish Encyclopedia entry) are basically Josephus' writings (and Acts of the Apostles).

From what you say, he is not mentioned by Tacitus. I admit I am not familiar with Tacitus' writings on 1st C Judea. But from skimming your link, it appears.....as if Tacitus just does not mention many (any?) specific names (just 'jews') when it comes to those responsible for the troubles and uprising. If that were the case, it would not detract much from what Josephus says, would it? It would not cast much doubt on Judas' existence, I mean?
Last edited by archibald on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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