'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

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archibald
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:59 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 am
It would be interesting to know if Reza Aslan read Gunnar Haaland and McLaren. There could be an element of truth to all accounts: Jospehus's, McLaren's and Haalands', and Aslans.
I have just finished Aslan's book, 'Zealot'. It is in my opinion, very sympathetic to gospel Jesus. He doesn't even really claim that Jesus was much of a militant at all, being at pains to stress that his term, 'zealot' is only loosely applied and not the same as what it came to mean later. Aslan's Jesus, it seemed to me, was basically the reasonable sage/preacher/faith healer/messiah in the gospels who got cross in a zealot sort of way at times or shared some grievances with zealots.


I myself haven't read Gunnar Haaland or McLaren.
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MrMacSon
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 pm

archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:53 pm

Yes, the sources for Judas (including the Jewish Encyclopedia) are basically Josephus' writings (and Acts of the Apostles).

From what you say, he is not mentioned by Tacitus. I admit I am not familiar with Tacitus' writings on 1st C Judea. But from skimming your link, it appears.....as if Tacitus just does not mention many (any?) specific names (just 'Jews') when it comes to those responsible for the troubles and uprising.

If that were the case, it would not detract much from what Josephus says, would it? It would not cast much doubt on Judas' existence, I mean?
I agree that Tacitus's lack of mention of specific names does not detract from what Josephus says, other than what McLaren or Haaland might say about Josephus embellishing or concocting accounts. And, even then, it might just be a question of degree or weighting given to Judas the Galilean and the Zealots versus other groups in Jerusalem in terms of agitation leading to the First Roman Jewish War 66-70 AD; and possibly whether it was predominantly a Roman v Jewish war or a Jewish Civil War (or if, like the recent was in Syria, it was a layered and complicated affair).

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:15 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 pm
I agree that Tacitus's lack of mention of specific names does not detract from what Josephus says, other than what McLaren or Haaland might say about Josephus embellishing or concocting accounts. And, even then, it might just be a question of degree or weighting given to Judas the Galilean and the Zealots versus other groups in Jerusalem in terms of agitation leading to the First Roman Jewish War 66-70 AD; and possibly whether it was predominantly a Roman v Jewish war or a Jewish Civil War (or if, like the recent was in Syria, it was a layered and complicated affair).
I tend to guess, when I have to guess, that 'things were probably more complex than they appear to have been'.

This applies to modern situations just as much as historical ones. For one thing, I grew up in a conflict zone (Belfast) and I am pretty sure that no one here ever fully understood it, let alone an outsider, let alone a historian. :)


Unterbrink, incidentally, suggests that the original Jewish Jesus/Judas Movement was decimated in the 66-73AD war with the Romans, which is partly why (he says) it lost out to Paul's Hellenical Christianity. But Unterbrink goes on to say that the remnants may have survived as Ebionites.

My understanding of Ebionites is that they were...by and large.....peaceable rather than militant, which....may amount to a sort of contra-indicator to what Unterbrink is saying about the original movement (that it was very militant).

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:22 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 am
It would be interesting to know if Reza Aslan read Gunnar Haaland and McLaren. There could be an element of truth to all accounts: Jospehus's, McLaren's and Haalands', and Aslans.
archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:59 pm
I have just finished Aslan's book, 'Zealot'. It is in my opinion, very sympathetic to gospel Jesus. He doesn't even really claim that Jesus was much of a militant at all, being at pains to stress that his term, 'zealot' is only loosely applied and not the same as what it came to mean later. Aslan's Jesus, it seemed to me, was basically the reasonable sage/preacher/faith healer/messiah in the gospels who got cross in a zealot sort of way at times or shared some grievances with zealots.

I myself haven't read Gunnar Haaland or McLaren.
Cheers. I haven't read Aslan's book either, or Haaland or McLaren.

It's interesting what you say, as Aslan's book was, as I recall, publicised as being about a full zealot character (lol). There's almost scope for a meta-book - how Jesus has been portrayed through the years especially recently - a chapter on a comparison of Aslan and Unterbrink's commentaries would be interesting.

Does the bibliograpahy or list of references in Aslan's book list Haaland or McLaren? Does he refer to them or cite them?

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:22 pm

To add, MrMacSon,.....as to degree and weighting...I agree that we must take Josephus' biases (whatever we reasonably deem them to be) into account. I don't think we can treat him as either impartial, without agenda or as being a historian in the modern sense.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:25 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:22 pm
Does the bibliograpahy or list of references in Aslan's book list Haaland or McLaren? Does he refer to them or cite them?
I will check.

Aslan is pretty open at the very outset that he admires gospel Jesus (and he relies on the gospels heavily throughout the book). To my mind (and as ever I can only offer my subjective opinion) he is....unlikely to want to 'go the whole hog' and think of Jesus as a militant or rebel. To that extent, yes, the title of the book is slightly misleadingly senational, imo.

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 pm

I checked. extensive bibliography but no mention, that I can see, of McLaren or Haaland. No mention throughout the text either, that I can recall.

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:36 pm

archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 pm
I checked. extensive bibliography but no mention, that I can see, of McLaren or Haaland. No mention throughout the text either, that I can recall.
Cheers. It'd be interesting to read them all: McLaren, Haaland, Unterbrink, and Aslan

archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:25 pm
Aslan is pretty open at the very outset that he admires gospel Jesus (and he relies on the gospels heavily throughout the book). To my mind (and as ever I can only offer my subjective opinion) he is....unlikely to want to 'go the whole hog' and think of Jesus as a militant or rebel. To that extent, yes, the title of the book is slightly misleadingly senational, imo.
I have wondered if he would not have wanted to upset the pro-Christian demographic he lives in -ie. the USA (particularly as a Muslim: if he had done a Carrier he might have had to leave the country).

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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by archibald » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:40 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:36 pm
I have wondered if he would not have wanted to upset the pro-Christian demographic he lives in -ie. the USA (particularly as a Muslim: if he had done a Carrier he might have had to leave the country).
Possibly. Hard to say. As an immigrant...it's plausible.

He says his family background was liberal muslim verging on atheism, and that he only 'discovered' Jesus in the USA as a young man.

I don't really want to get into Carrier. Because I don't really want the discussion to devolve into a mythicist versus historicist dichotomy (aka 'a stupid pointless ding dong'), as, in my experience, it too often does on internet fora.

I will say this though. While I am not, in principle, averse to the mythicist or ahistoricist thesis, it's my personal opinion that Carrier specifically, in the words of Bruce Springsteen (in the song 'Hungry Heart'), 'took a wrong turn and just kept going'. Imho, Carrier is, unfortunately, polishing a turd made by Earl Doherty.

I don't know whose standpoint that might upset here (being new) but It's my considered opinion. Getting an outer space Jesus from the epistles is, imho, tenuous at best.

Carrier, or mythicist/ahistoricist theses generally, might even be a slight derail from this particular OP.
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Re: 'Judas of Nazareth' by Daniel Unterbrink

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:49 pm

archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:15 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 pm
I agree that Tacitus's lack of mention of specific names does not detract from what Josephus says, other than what McLaren or Haaland might say about Josephus embellishing or concocting accounts. And, even then, it might just be a question of degree or weighting given to Judas the Galilean and the Zealots versus other groups in Jerusalem in terms of agitation leading to the First Roman Jewish War 66-70 AD; and possibly whether it was predominantly a Roman v Jewish war or a Jewish Civil War (or if, like the recent was in Syria, it was a layered and complicated affair).
I tend to guess, when I have to guess, that 'things were probably more complex than they appear to have been'.

This applies to modern situations just as much as historical ones. For one thing, I grew up in a conflict zone (Belfast) and I am pretty sure that no one here ever fully understood it, let alone an outsider, let alone a historian. :)
I bet the 'N'orn Irre'and' (sic) conflict was very complicated: so many intersections within and between both major categories.

I saw an article recently that a Protestant family was told by police to get out of their house that day and not come back b/c intelligence said they were about to be attacked (ie. in the last 18 mths). No reason.

archibald wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Unterbrink, incidentally, suggests that the original Jewish Jesus/Judas Movement was decimated in the 66-73AD war with the Romans, which is partly why (he says) it lost out to Paul's Hellenical Christianity. But Unterbrink goes on to say that the remnants may have survived as Ebionites.

My understanding of Ebionites is that they were...by and large.....peaceable rather than militant, which....may amount to a sort of contra-indicator to what Unterbrink is saying about the original movement (that it was very militant).
Cheers. I've seen various comments that terms like 'The Poor' were initially either pejorative or sarcastic. Information that might fully elaborate on things like that are likely lost.

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