Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:50 am

You have explained your reasons. Basically, you argue that "that world" can only be the earth. I am not so sure. A tree is mentioned but not even Jerusalem. This is too much striking.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:40 am

“Paul says demons were involved, and never says humans were involved, so although humans could have been involved according to Paul, that means we need other evidence to justify making a less straightforward interpretation of Paul’s statements”
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13573#comments

Is someone is killed by demons, then probably he is killed where the demons fly: in the air.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

archibald
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by archibald » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:49 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:40 am
If someone is killed by demons, then probably he is killed where the demons fly: in the air.
What if they hovered just slightly above the ground?

Bernard Muller
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:02 am

Is someone is killed by demons, then probably he is killed where the demons fly: in the air.
Paul never said that demons killed Jesus: "archontes" is not translated by "demons" (but "rulers" is adequate).
Furthermore, I think it is rather strange that people in antiquity would think that demons are rulers. Satan may have been considered a ruler, but I doubt it is the case for the many demons thought by some to have existed.

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 am

It's pathetic to see historicists retreat to the last desperate "defense" - that the archontes are not spiritual beings -, in order to confute Carrier. Simply pathetic.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:11 pm

What is pathetic is your insistence that "archontes" in 1 Co 2:8 means demons. And I don't care if I confute Carrier or not.
Furthermore, in Paul's epistles "this aion" is clearly associated to humans in the earthly world, such as in 1 Co 1:20 & 3:15, but never clearly associated to demons in the alleged world in the air.
Furthermore, Paul strongly suggested (twice) the sacrifice/crucifixion happened on earth, in the heartland of the Jews: http://historical-jesus.info/19.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:14 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:02 am
Furthermore, I think it is rather strange that people in antiquity would think that demons are rulers. Satan may have been considered a ruler, but I doubt it is the case for the many demons thought by some to have existed.
What about...?

Leviticus 20.5: 5 then I Myself will set My face against that man and against his family; and I will cut off from among their people both him and all those who play the harlot after him, by playing the harlot after Molech [LXX: εἰς τοὺς ἄρχοντας, "after the rulers"].

Daniel 10.13: 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the principal rulers [LXX: εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν πρώτων], came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia."

1 Enoch 6.3: 3 And Semjaza, who was their ruler [ὃς ἦν ἄρχων αὐτῶν], said unto them, "I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin."

1 Enoch 6.6-7: 6 And they were in all two hundred who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7 And these are the names of their rulers [τῶν ἀρχόντων αὐτῶν]: Samjazaz, their ruler [ἄρχων αὐτῶν], Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

1 Enoch 8.1: 1 And Azazel [Syncellus' recension adds: ὁ δέκατος τῶν ἀρχόντων, "the tenth of the rulers"] taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures.

It appears that both good spirits/angels (like Michael) and evil spirits/demons (like Semjaza) could be rulers; and it appears that both sides could have more than one ruler.

It may be strange (to you), but it looks like it happened.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:20 pm

And there is an old understanding that 7 days of creation = seven rulers over the things created on each day.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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