Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

[Giuseppe]

There are no doubts that it's 1 Cor 2:6-8. The fact that demons crucified Jesus.

It is difficult to imagine that the demons crucified Jesus on the earth, given the fact that:

1) on the earth the Romans had the monopoly of the crucifixion.

2) the demons have a more active role in heaven (even today the Christians say that Satan can't interfere actively in the physical world, but only via the "free will" of the people, while he lives and rules in the Hell). It is difficult to imagine real objects (the cross, a tree, the nails...) that are used by demons on the earth, while it is more easy to imagine that the demons use these same objects in the outer space.

3) Paul seems to mean that the knowledge of who crucified Jesus is a secret reserved only to few people, and even they didn't see the crucifixion but only the Risen Christ. A thing that is not seen is more probably a thing happened in heaven than on earth.

4) Since he is revealing a secret to "perfects", Paul would say only the essential thing (without need of a cryptic allusion to Romans by mentioning only the demons). He allegorizes only when he talks before the Galatians.

5) the demons can fly freely in the outer space, and only by flying they can nail Jesus on a point so high as a cross may be. This freedom of movement is denied to demons if they crucify people on the earth.

[neilgodfrey]

A quibble.

I deplore Carrier's use of "outer space" in this context. It is a grossly misleading anachronism. A more accurate term is "sub lunar realm" since that term is one to which the ancients themselves could relate. Outer space suggests the open expanse above the earth's atmosphere right on out to the ends of the universe. That's not where Couchoud, Doherty nor even Carrier, place the crucifixion. They believed Paul envisaged it very near the earth in a realm that contained thicker and more substantial stuff (albeit spiritual in some sense) than was found above the moon and closer to the throne of God. Everything below the moon was subject to change, decay, even death and dissolution. It was obvious. Look how the moon itself is not a perfectly smooth silvery surface even when full, and look how it is subject to shadowy changes and even disappears for a time every month or so, etc.

End of quibble.

[Giuseppe]

I agree entirely with the your criticism. The "outer space" term seems to allude not to a "natural" extension of the earth (as it really is in the ancient cosmology) but to a place divided drastically from the earth. Surely not what Paul desired to mean: for him the earth was corrupted as the his sub-lunar extension.

My point in this thread is that if it is accepted that for Paul only the demons crucified Jesus, then the more natural implication is that the place of the crucifixion was in the sub-lunar realm (as the best place where the demons have complete freedom of action, no need of the Romans to crucify someone, and all the invisibility that they desire).

[Joseph D. L.]

"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." ~ 1 Cor 2:8

How then could Justin say the following:

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things.And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

?

Justin periodically argues that the devils, demons, and wicked spirits had anticipated the advent of Christ and took to proliferate false versions and ideas of him in various pagan religions and philosophies.

What was done in ignorance for Paul, was done with foresight for Justin.

[GakuseiDon]

Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus? There are no doubts that it's 1 Cor 2:6-8. The fact that demons crucified Jesus.

There is one other source that Paul may have used here that should be looked at: the Hebrew Scriptures. No-one doubts that Paul and the early Christians looked to the Old Testament to 'find' information about the Messiah. Does it say anything that might help us understand Paul?

First, let's recap what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 2:

1. The rulers of this age did not know that Christ was being sent to be crucified
2. If they had known it, e.g. if they had been wise enough, they wouldn't have crucified Christ
3. Now that they have crucified Christ, they are perishing

Is there anything in the Old Testament where Paul might have seen such an event 'predicted'? Yes there is: Psalms 2. Psalms 2 refers to the Messiah and what will happen when he comes. I've reproduced this short Psalm below (KJV). I've bolded key words, though it is worth reading the whole Psalm to recognise the echoes in the unhighlighted passages that are undoubtedly reflected in the later New Testament:

Ps 2.1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2.2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed [Messiah], saying,
2.3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
2.4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision."
2.5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
2.6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
2.7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
2.8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
2.9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
2.10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
2.11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
2.12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Here we see the 'prediction' laid out: the kings of the earth and the rulers will work together against God and His Messiah, but they should 'be wise' and 'kiss the Son', otherwise the kings and rulers will 'perish from the way'. This matches the elements in 1 Cor 2:6-8 very well indeed.

Obviously, from Paul's perspective, the kings and rulers did not 'kiss the Son'. They crucified Christ, and so Paul expects them to perish with Christ's imminent return.

To me, if Paul understood Psalms 2 as a prophecy about the Messiah, then he would have assumed that Christ was crucified as a conspiracy at the end of this age by the kings and rulers of the earth. I doubt that Paul would have put much thought into this, like wondering 'Is it fair to include Jewish rulers or Roman rulers or Persian rulers into this?' Simply: the Hebrew Scriptures said it was them, so he went along with that.

[Giuseppe]

Justin periodically argues that the devils, demons, and wicked spirits had anticipated the advent of Christ and took to proliferate false versions and ideas of him in various pagan religions and philosophies.

What was done in ignorance for Paul, was done with foresight for Justin.

Thanks for this. Clearly Justin would like that the Crucifixion was the Known Event par excellence.

Note how the demons could play an active role on the earth in only a possible way: by possessing the demonic people or by revelations masked as divine revelations.

[Giuseppe]

To me, if Paul understood Psalms 2 as a prophecy about the Messiah, then he would have assumed that Christ was crucified as a conspiracy at the end of this age by the kings and rulers of the earth. I doubt that Paul would have put much thought into this, like wondering 'Is it fair to include Jewish rulers or Roman rulers or Persian rulers into this?' Simply: the Hebrew Scriptures said it was them, so he went along with that.

the demons are already "kings of the earth" by definition of "archons of this aeon". And Satan was called in John the "Prince of this World". So it is perfectly possible that Paul read the Psalm as a prophecy. What I point out is that the "perfects" (addressed by Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-8), differently from the "foolish Galatians", don't need allusions to Psalm or metaphors (or even show of sacred dramas) by Paul, since they are enough "mature" to listen entirely all the truth: the demons crucified Jesus.

[archibald]

To me, if Paul understood Psalms 2 as a prophecy about the Messiah, then he would have assumed that Christ was crucified as a conspiracy at the end of this age by the kings and rulers of the earth. I doubt that Paul would have put much thought into this, like wondering 'Is it fair to include Jewish rulers or Roman rulers or Persian rulers into this?' Simply: the Hebrew Scriptures said it was them, so he went along with that.

Quick question.

I heard (read online) that Doherty, a few years ago, conceded (with caveats) that 'Jesus' may have been described as having come to earth in Ascension of Isaiah. Is this correct and do you have a link?

I also believe that Carrier suggests that there was a now-missing earlier version of A of I which better supports the 'not having descended to earth' hypothesis. I am not clear on whether this 'missing version' argument was his position from the beginning.

[DCHindley]

After psychically communing with the deified Jesus on his space yacht "Disco Volante" (he had seen a TV broadcast of the James Bond thriller Thunderballs and liked Emilio Largo's battle-boat, commissioning one much like it from God himself), it was revealed that aliens commonly called "whites" are actually the Angels of the bible, and the alien creatures commonly called "greys" are what were called demons.

However, he was quick to correct the misconception that he acted out his death and resurrection "in outer space" as his space yacht actually operates in the 4th dimension, which does not have space as we conceive it, but ads a 4th dimension that allows for relative time shifting. This time travel feature, of course, is how he could enact his death & resurrection 1,930 years before he had his space battle-yacht commissioned in 1965.

The cost he said was equivalent to 1.5 trillion U$ dollars, which is exactly the amount of money our current President has cut corporate taxes. When I suggested, nervously, whether this means that he and his rich cronies are planning to buy one as well to achieve the ultimate goal of universal and total power over all time and space, Jesus just laughed and quoted himself: "I do not know them ..."

DCH

[Bernard Muller]

There are no doubts that it's 1 Cor 2:6-8. The fact that demons crucified Jesus.

Not true. 'archons' do not translate as "demons". "Demons" is translated by 'demonions' (as in 1 Cor 10:20-21).

Cordially, Bernard