Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
archibald
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by archibald » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:16 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:43 am
Giuseppe and Archibald, do you have a link to the statement(s) by McGrath you are thinking of in this context?
Here:
I've read through it, albeit fairly quickly and I don't see where McGrath agrees with Carrier that the death took place in Sheol or that sheol is in the air, though I think he discusses both. If I've missed it, that's fine. I don't mind admitting that if it's the case.

Ediot: Ah I see I am behind in my catching up and Giuseppe has already reposted it. :)

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:20 am

The error is mine. I had thought that McGrath was able to follow the Carrier's logic: if the Sheol seems the terminus ante quem for Jesus, then he has to die in the Sheol, IF Mythicism is correct.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

archibald
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by archibald » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:22 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:20 am
The error is mine. I had thought that McGrath was able to follow the Carrier's logic: if the Sheol seems the terminus ante quem for Jesus, then he has to die in the Sheol, IF Mythicism is correct.
I have an even more elaborate argument. It goes like this. If mythicism is correct then mythicism is correct, and the implications are similar if not identical for mythicism, and also for mythicism. If it's correct.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:23 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:12 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:10 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:08 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:39 am
archibald wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 am
It's completely unclear where the writer puts sheol....
I do not think it is completely unclear: "Go forth and descend through all the heavens, and you will descend to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol you will descend, but to Haguel you will not go." This reads like an itinerary, in order: heavens, firmament, "that world" (= the world of humans, pretty consistently throughout the text), sheol. It looks like sheol is further below the human world.
"that world" is the world under the firmament and above the Sheol. But where is the Sheol?
Under "that world" (which elsewhere in the text is the world of humans).
evidence, please. Or do you refer to the "evidence" in the 'Pocket Gospel'?
No, I think the "pocket gospel" is an interpolation. Here are some uses of "that world" in the Ascension of Isaiah:

I indeed say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has ascended or seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see. [The world in which Isaiah lives.]

Show me how everything which is done in that world is here made known." .... And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One, who shall be named as I told thee, and they will observe those things, and believe in them, and believe in His cross: for them are these laid up." [These are humans, believing on the One and being rewarded for it.]

Besides, in 10.8, what do you think "that world" is referring to? It is below the firmament and above sheol. What is it, in your view?
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:24 am

Please don't post in vain, Archibald. I have to see still where would be the evidence that "that world" is full of human beings, per Ben.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

archibald
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by archibald » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:28 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:23 am
No, I think the "pocket gospel" is an interpolation. Here are some uses of "that world" in the Ascension of Isaiah:

I indeed say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has ascended or seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see. [The world in which Isaiah lives.]

Show me how everything which is done in that world is here made known." .... And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One, who shall be named as I told thee, and they will observe those things, and believe in them, and believe in His cross: for them are these laid up." [These are humans, believing on the One and being rewarded for it.]

Besides, in 10.8, what do you think "that world" is referring to? It is below the firmament and above sheol. What is it, in your view?
Also, as you probably know, 8:26 has "that Lord who will descend in your form" which, as I understand it (from reading gakuseidon's posts) Carrier and Doherty did not initially address when dismissing 'in your form' in chapter 9 (because the chapter 9 example isn't in the Latin version).

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:34 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:23 am

I indeed say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has ascended or seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see. [The world in which Isaiah lives.]

But here the dualism is between "that world" (archontic realm + earth, or everywhere that kind of "body" is necessary) and the celestial upper realms.

Show me how everything which is done in that world is here made known." .... And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One, who shall be named as I told thee, and they will observe those things, and believe in them, and believe in His cross: for them are these laid up." [These are humans, believing on the One and being rewarded for it.][/box]
These "garments" are of celestial origin:
But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are (now) stored up on high in the seventh heaven:

Besides, in 10.8, what do you think "that world" is referring to? It is below the firmament and above sheol. What is it, in your view?
the "world" is precisely the archontic realm, while the Sheol is the his lower part, still guarded by archontes.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:49 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:34 am
These "garments" are of celestial origin:
But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are (now) stored up on high in the seventh heaven:
The garments are celestial. But the ones who will wear them are the ones who will come from "that world" — read the verse: "These garments many from that world will receive." Where do humans come from?
Besides, in 10.8, what do you think "that world" is referring to? It is below the firmament and above sheol. What is it, in your view?
the "world" is precisely the archontic realm, while the Sheol is the his lower part, still guarded by archontes.
The "archontic realm" — what is that? What is it called in the text?
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:34 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:23 am

I indeed say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has ascended or seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see. [The world in which Isaiah lives.]

But here the dualism is between "that world" (archontic realm + earth, or everywhere that kind of "body" is necessary) and the celestial upper realms.
What? Isaiah is going to return to a body "of that world" — this is obviously his own human body. "That world," then, does not exclude the realm of humans. Your "archontic realm" sounds, to be honest, like a parallel dimension or alternate reality from science fiction.
Giuseppe wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:It is the worst.
I don't understand why it is the "worst", for you. Ben. Can you specify your pov?
The above is why. These texts are hard enough to understand without taking the easier parts and literally making them harder for no other reason than to support one's theory.

Take those celestial garments intended for humans, for example. The text is so, so clear that "the world" in question ("that world") is the world from which those who will wear the garments are going to come. Yet you read the text as if the garments themselves come from "that world" — and the garments are celestial, therefore "that world" is celestial. It is a bizarre, inexcusable misreading of the text; and that is just the sort of thing that is required in order to sustain the idea of a Christian crucifixion in the... in the what? The firmament? The air? The "archontic realm," whatever that is?
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:49 am
Take those celestial garments intended for humans, for example. The text is so, so clear that "the world" in question ("that world") is the world from which those who will wear the garments are going to come.
Also the fallen angels can be rewarded, not only human beings. Therefore those garments are not intended only for humans, I think.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:05 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:49 am
Take those celestial garments intended for humans, for example. The text is so, so clear that "the world" in question ("that world") is the world from which those who will wear the garments are going to come.
Also the fallen angels can be rewarded, not only human beings. Therefore those garments are not intended only for humans, I think.
Show me, then. Do more than just speculate. Show me parallels or passages or something. Here are mine....

In chapter 8 we are told about "the garments, and the thrones, and the crowns which are laid up for the righteous, for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form." Are these "righteous fallen angels," or are they what is usually meant by "the righteous," to wit, humans?

In chapter 9 we find "holy Abel and all the righteous," along with "Enoch and all who were with him," standing "in their garments of the upper world" "in great glory." Abel and Enoch are humans, right?

Near the end of the book it says that "such things you will read. and watch in the Holy Spirit in order that you may receive your garments and thrones and crowns of glory which are laid up in the seventh heaven." Is this being addressed to fallen angels or to humans?
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