Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:11 am

I myself am actually very sympathetic to the idea that an earlier version of the Ascension of Isaiah was "mythicist" in its own way. Our current verse (10.8) says that the beloved is told to "go forth and descend through all the heavens" to the firmament and "that world" and then to the angel in sheol. Here the earth ("that world") may be no more than just another point along the path, no more likely to host the crucifixion than the heavens or the firmament. Could this be a relic from an earlier version in which Jesus was in fact crucified in sheol? Romans 10.6-7 also names locales associated with Jesus as heaven and the abyss; the earth is not mentioned. Could that be a relic of the same story?

But in the form of the Ascension of Isaiah that we currently possess, in all of its versions, the crucifixion happens on the earth, after which Christ descends to Sheol.

And it takes a lot less textual rearrangement and imagination to posit an earlier version in which the crucifixion happened in sheol (a sheol which is beneath the earth) than it does to posit an earlier version in which it takes place in the firmament or in the air, much less in "outer space" (ugh).
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:14 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:05 am
In chapter 8 we are told about "the garments, and the thrones, and the crowns which are laid up for the righteous, for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form." Are these "righteous fallen angels," or are they what is usually meant by "the righteous," to wit, humans?
Ok, they are human beings. But they come from the world below the firmament, just as the demons.
In chapter 9 we find "holy Abel and all the righteous," along with "Enoch and all who were with him," standing "in their garments of the upper world" "in great glory." Abel and Enoch are humans, right?
Enoch is an archangel in the Book of Enoch. In The Testament of Abraham 13:11, Abel is the angel the first of the twelve that the soul will encounter after Enoch, the heavenly scribe, retrieves the book containing that soul's record.
Near the end of the book it says that "such things you will read. and watch in the Holy Spirit in order that you may receive your garments and thrones and crowns of glory which are laid up in the seventh heaven." Is this being addressed to fallen angels or to humans?
To humans.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:23 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:14 am
Enoch is an archangel in the Book of Enoch. In The Testament of Abraham 13:11, Abel is the angel the first of the twelve that the soul will encounter after Enoch, the heavenly scribe, retrieves the book containing that soul's record.
Show me. Quote the texts.
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 am

About Enoch:
Enoch ceases to be a human being (his flesh melts) and he is transformed into the preexistent heavenly messiah, the Son of Man.
https://vridar.org/2013/08/07/christ-be ... to-heaven/

About Abel:
This is the son of the first created Adam, who is called Abel, whom the wicked Cain killed, and he sits thus to judge all creation, and examines righteous men and sinners. For God has said, I shall not judge you, but every man born of man shall be judged. Therefore he has given to him judgment, to judge the world until his great and glorious coming, and then, O righteous Abraham, is the perfect judgment and recompense, eternal and unchangeable, which no one can alter.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1007.htm

I think that the words are too much self-evident:
And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
Where is Pilate? Where is Jerusalem? How can the ''hand'' of the ''god of that world'' be interpreted in a not-literal way?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 am
I think that the words are too much self-evident:
And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
I too think that this verse could have been meant literally in the original version. I am not sure about that, but it is possible. But this has nothing to do with a crucifixion in the firmament or in "outer space."
About Enoch:
Enoch ceases to be a human being (his flesh melts) and he is transformed into the preexistent heavenly messiah, the Son of Man.
https://vridar.org/2013/08/07/christ-be ... to-heaven/
That is not quoting the text; that is quoting a modern exegete of the text. Moreover, you said that Enoch was an archangel in the text, not the messianic son of man. Please, quote the text you were thinking of, the one in which Enoch is an archangel.
About Abel:
This is the son of the first created Adam, who is called Abel, whom the wicked Cain killed, and he sits thus to judge all creation, and examines righteous men and sinners. For God has said, I shall not judge you, but every man born of man shall be judged. Therefore he has given to him judgment, to judge the world until his great and glorious coming, and then, O righteous Abraham, is the perfect judgment and recompense, eternal and unchangeable, which no one can alter.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1007.htm
In the Apocalypse of Abraham, Abel is an exalted human, exactly as he is in the Ascension of Isaiah. He was killed by Cain, and he was taken up post mortem to assume a role of judgment in the heavens. He is surrounded by angels, just as Isaiah, Enoch, and Abel are surrounded by angels in the Ascension of Isaiah, but I cannot find a single instance in which he is called an angel. He is repeatedly called a wondrous man or a wondrous judge. He works alongside angels who assist him, including one who wields fire. He definitely has a role in judging the rest of humanity, as does Enoch. But that is not what you said; you said he was an angel, in a bid to make his receiving of celestial garments seem like an angel (a fallen angel, no less!) receiving celestial garments. Yet that is not what is happening at all. He is a human being receiving celestial garments. (And, even if he were an angel in the Apocalypse of Abraham, you would still have to demonstrate that this is what the author of the Ascension of Isaiah was going for.)

This is just more exegetical torture, Giuseppe. I cannot bear it. Every lead you throw to me is a dead end, based on deep, deep misunderstandings of the materials upon which your hypotheses rely.
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:05 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 am
I think that the words are too much self-evident:
And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
I too think that this verse could have been meant literally in the original version. I am not sure about that, but it is possible. But this has nothing to do with a crucifixion in the firmament or in "outer space."
I disagree. This has something to do with a crucifixion in the ''outer space''. The author of the AoI couldn't pass not-observed the real action of Satan in this earth, if he really meant an earthly action by Satan.
For the same reason, Paul couldn't pass not-observed a mythical Jesus in this earth, if he had predicted a Roman crucifixion of a phantom.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:10 am

I myself am actually very sympathetic to the idea that an earlier version of the Ascension of Isaiah was "mythicist" in its own way.
According to my study on the work of R.H. Charles, I deducted that the AoI started as a strictly Jewish text. It then got slightly Christianize by one docetist interpolator, then a lot more by two other different docetists interpolators.
It's all explained here: http://historical-jesus.info/100.html
It wouldn't put Sheol in the air. It's completely unclear where the writer puts sheol and it does not say Jesus was cruficied in sheol anyway
I said that, according to AoI, Sheol would be located in the air, at the highest.
Of course, Sheol in the air (or on earth) below the heavens and the firmament does not make any sense. And the most likely location is somewhere below the surface of the earth, where the dead are, as least in the mind of the author.
And I do not see, for Christians then, why the beloved could not be crucified on earth before going to Sheol prior to his resurrection, as alluded in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Ephesians 4:9-10.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:26 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:05 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 am
I think that the words are too much self-evident:
And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
I too think that this verse could have been meant literally in the original version. I am not sure about that, but it is possible. But this has nothing to do with a crucifixion in the firmament or in "outer space."
I disagree. This has something to do with a crucifixion in the ''outer space''. The author of the AoI couldn't pass not-observed the real action of Satan in this earth, if he really meant an earthly action by Satan.
For the same reason, Paul couldn't pass not-observed a mythical Jesus in this earth, if he had predicted a Roman crucifixion of a phantom.
This still does not mean that the crucifixion is in "outer space" in this text. Why is it just either/or for you? (Either it happened on earth or it happened in "outer space.") What I am saying is that, in a previous version, maybe it happened in sheol, under the earth. In that case there would be no earthly action of Satan's to describe. The deed would be done under the earth.
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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:33 am

Even McGrath recognizes that Carrier is right when he says that some Jews placed the Sheol in the air.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Where is the more strong evidence in Paul pointing to an outer space Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:35 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:33 am
Even McGrath recognizes that Carrier is right when he says that some Jews placed the Sheol in the air.
Yes, they did. But that does not seem to be the case for the Ascension of Isaiah.
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