Good Proofs that Jesus Existed

[ApostateAbe]

This is a thread for the actual arguments that Jesus existed, but they should be good arguments, not the strawman satirical arguments in the other thread (Proofs That Jesus Existed). Each such argument (not really a "proof") requires more explanation and detail to fully understand and appreciate, but I think it will help to have a brief and accurate overview of all the best arguments, not just the strawman versions of them. Put the satirical proofs in the other thread. And, if you wish to debate any of the arguments presented, then it is best to start a new thread on the topic and not derail this one.

[stevencarrwork]

Galatians 1:19 is evidence that Jesus existed.

[ApostateAbe]

I will start with my most preferred argument that Jesus existed.

ARGUMENT FROM PATTERN OF CULTS
(1) There is an actual human being corresponding to the reputed founder of every cult in history and the modern world that reveres such a reputed human founder, in absolutely every case where the information is available.
(2) Jesus was reputed to be the human founder of the cult of Christianity that revered him.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.

[stevencarrwork]

I will start with my most preferred argument that Jesus existed.

ARGUMENT FROM PATTERN OF CULTS
(1) There is an actual human being corresponding to the reputed founder of every cult in history and the modern world that reveres such a reputed human founder, in absolutely every case where the information is available.
(2) Jesus was reputed to be the human founder of the cult of Christianity that revered him.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.

In other words, Benjamin Creme's Maitreya really does exist.

Even if he doesn't.

When did Jesus found Christianity? Before his death or afterwards?

[ApostateAbe]

Galatians 1:19 is evidence that Jesus existed.

Yes, and I will state the argument with more detail.

ARGUMENT FROM GALATIANS 1:19
(1) Paul's epistle to the Galatians is very likely an authentic epistle given the epistle's account of Paul's strong religious dispute with other Christian leaders.
(2) The passage of Galatians 1:19 has a passing and disinterested account of Paul meeting with "James, the Lord's brother," and is unlikely to be a Christian interpolation.
(3) The most probable interpretation of "James, the Lord's brother," is that James was the literal brother of Jesus, given like claims in the synoptic gospels and Josephus. The interpretation that James was a merely-metaphorical brother is less direct and weaker.
(4) Therefore, Paul met James, the brother of Jesus.
(5) Therefore, Jesus existed.

[ApostateAbe]

I will start with my most preferred argument that Jesus existed.

ARGUMENT FROM PATTERN OF CULTS
(1) There is an actual human being corresponding to the reputed founder of every cult in history and the modern world that reveres such a reputed human founder, in absolutely every case where the information is available.
(2) Jesus was reputed to be the human founder of the cult of Christianity that revered him.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.

In other words, Benjamin Creme's Maitreya really does exist.

Even if he doesn't.

When did Jesus found Christianity? Before his death or afterwards?

Maitreya seems to be neither a reputed human being nor a reputed cult founder.

Jesus apparently founded Christianity before his death, though the cult he founded was considerably different from what it eventually became. Disagreements among historians (Bart Ehrman would disagree with me) would rest on the definition of Christianity.

If you are interested in debating these two points further, then let's start one or two new threads.

[stevencarrwork]

Maitreya seems to be neither a reputed human being nor a reputed cult founder.

Well, that says it all, really. Special pleading all round.

Jesus apparently founded Christianity before his death, though the cult he founded was considerably different from what it eventually became. Disagreements among historians (Bart Ehrman would disagree with me) would rest on the definition of Christianity.

More special pleading.

Jesus founded Christianity before his death, (evidence please), except the Christianity he founded was not the Christianity that claims Jesus was its founder because it claims Jesus rose from the grave.

[ApostateAbe]

I guess I am kinda missing your points about "special pleading," Steven, and I think I will just move on, unless you start a new thread and explain further.

ARGUMENT FROM THE EMBARRASSMENT OF THE BAPTISM
(1) All gospel accounts tell of the baptism of Jesus in ways that seem to spin the stories more favorably in reaction to the embarrassing point about Jesus being baptized by the founder of a cult rivaling Christianity: John the Baptist.
(2) The most probable explanation for the existence of this embarrassing point universally known among gospel authors is that Jesus really was baptized by John the Baptist.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.

[stephan happy huller]

I find the whole 'there has to be a human author' of cult thoroughly unconvincing. Look at the Pentateuch.

1. It purports to be a witness of the Exodus (I will ignore Genesis).
2. It purports to have been written by Moses
3. It claims that a man named Moses founded the Israelite religion.
4. It claims that he was opposed by 'Pharaoh'

How many of these claims can actually be proven? How many can be easily disproved?

1. Disproved. It is not a witness to the Exodus it was written after the Persians took control of Judea and Samaria.
2. Debunked. It was not written by Moses
3. How can we be at all when the Egyptian records identify the actual leader as named Osarseph. I am more confident in the information that comes to us from Manetho.
4. Of course he was opposed by 'Pharaoh' given that the story was set in ancient Egypt. But so what?

The gospel is probably just about as reliable. Maybe the story is vaguely based on a historical event. But then again maybe it is so distantly removed from the actual 'happening' that we wouldn't recognize it if we found a record of it somewhere else.

[Blood]

Argument From Leon Festinger's Cognitive Dissonance Theory

(1) A group of committed believers convinced themselves that their spiritual leader was infallible
(2) Their spiritual leader proposed a certain date for prophecy to be fulfilled and some disaster to occur
(3) The date passed, prophecy was not fulfilled and the spiritual leader was instead arrested and executed
(4) The group interpreted their leader's execution as proof that the prophecy was fulfilled
(5) The group interpreted the lack of a disaster as proof that their faith and/or their leader's sacrifice prevented the disaster from happening

This has been advanced in the case of Jesus many times. It's a valid argument. I don't think it's correct in this case, but it's at least based on observational data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails