The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by hakeem »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:05 pm
There are sayings which make no sense in Greek but which make perfect sense in Hebrew or Aramaic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3718, implying that they hail from a Semitic environment. There are Semitisms in the gospels which, while they are not enough to prove that the texts are translations from a Semitic tongue, are enough to show that the authors were probably bilingual, writing in Greek in a Semitic way.
Your argument makes very little sense. The authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles openly made direct references to Jewish writings and copied word for word passages from the books of the Jewish prophets.

It would be expected that certain sayings in Hebrew would not make sense in Greek just like some sayings in English today would not make sense if translated to another language.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

hakeem wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:14 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:05 pm
There are sayings which make no sense in Greek but which make perfect sense in Hebrew or Aramaic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3718, implying that they hail from a Semitic environment. There are Semitisms in the gospels which, while they are not enough to prove that the texts are translations from a Semitic tongue, are enough to show that the authors were probably bilingual, writing in Greek in a Semitic way.
Your argument makes very little sense. The authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles openly made direct references to Jewish writings and copied word for word passages from the books of the Jewish prophets.

It would be expected that certain sayings in Hebrew would not make sense in Greek just like some sayings in English today would not make sense if translated to another language.
I am glad you agree with me. :cheers:
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MrMacSon
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:13 pm
Does the presence of guidelines about Letters of Marquis in the US Constitution (in the present tense) encourage people to write about them as if they were still issued?
Different context. Letters of marque would be issued to a real person by a current, existing entity: Congress.

eta: on the other hand, if there was a current proposal they be issued by the Confederacy ...
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:11 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:13 pm
Does the presence of guidelines about Letters of Marque in the US Constitution (in the present tense) encourage people to write about them as if they were still issued?
Different context. Letters of marque would be issued to a real person by a current, existing entity: Congress.
No, not in practice, IIUC. Congress has de facto followed the dictates of the Paris Declaration for more than a century, which forbids the issuance of Letters of Marque. But nobody bothered to amend the Constitution on this matter.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:25 pm
No, not in practice, IIUC. Congress has de facto followed the dictates of the Paris Declaration for more than a century, which forbids the issuance of Letters of Marque. But nobody bothered to amend the Constitution on this matter.
Ah ok, but I still contend that's a different context, Writing about a past Temple, in present tense, in reverence in a theological sense, could evoke a variety of responses, such as others also writing about it in present tense.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hakeem
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by hakeem »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:19 pm

There are sayings which make no sense in Greek but which make perfect sense in Hebrew or Aramaic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3718, implying that they hail from a Semitic environment. There are Semitisms in the gospels which, while they are not enough to prove that the texts are translations from a Semitic tongue, are enough to show that the authors were probably bilingual, writing in Greek in a Semitic way.
Your argument makes very little sense. The authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles openly made direct references to Jewish writings and copied word for word passages from the books of the Jewish prophets.

It would be expected that certain sayings in Hebrew would not make sense in Greek just like some sayings in English today would not make sense if translated to another language.
I am glad you agree with me. :cheers:
Again, your claim makes little sense. You have contradicted yourself.

I certainly do not agree with you at all since it is known that the Jesus story was derived directly by manipulating the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus.

The Semitisms in the Christian Bible is a direct result of copying Jewish Scripture and other Jewish writings already written in Greek.

GMatthew and the works of Josephus show how the Jesus story was manufactured.

Matthew 1:22
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet

Matthew 2:17
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet

Matthew 4:14
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet

Matthew 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet

Matthew 12:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet

Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet

Matthew 21:4
All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet

Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled

Matthew 27:9
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet

Matthew 27:35
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet

The stories of the character called Jesus in the NT are derived from events about other characters found in the writings attributed to Josephus.

Jesus the son of Ananus in Josephus

War of the Jews 6.5.3
....... he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said....
Jesus the Son of Sapphias in Josephus

Life of Josephus
Jesus the son of Sapphias, one of those whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and took with him certain Galileans.....
Jesus the brother of James in Josephus
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others
Jesus the High Priest in Josephus

Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1
Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
The crucifixion of three Jews where one survived in Josephus.

Life of Josephus
.....as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

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hakeem wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:33 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:19 pm

There are sayings which make no sense in Greek but which make perfect sense in Hebrew or Aramaic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3718, implying that they hail from a Semitic environment. There are Semitisms in the gospels which, while they are not enough to prove that the texts are translations from a Semitic tongue, are enough to show that the authors were probably bilingual, writing in Greek in a Semitic way.
Your argument makes very little sense. The authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles openly made direct references to Jewish writings and copied word for word passages from the books of the Jewish prophets.

It would be expected that certain sayings in Hebrew would not make sense in Greek just like some sayings in English today would not make sense if translated to another language.
I am glad you agree with me. :cheers:
Again, your claim makes little sense. You have contradicted yourself.

I certainly do not agree with you at all since it is known that the Jesus story was derived directly by manipulating the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus.
Once again, I agree with this. :cheers:
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MrMacSon
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by MrMacSon »

hakeem wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:33 am
... the Jesus story was derived directly by manipulating the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus.

The Semitisms in the Christian Bible is a direct result of copying Jewish Scripture and other Jewish writings already written in Greek.
It's possible Jewish scripture not readily available in Greek was also used, or discussions about oral versions of Jewish scripture - the Oral Torah - as part of the development of the Mishnah or Tosefta (or other halacha or aggadah) also contributed to the development of the Jesus story.

Simeon [Shimon] ben Gamliel II and his son -the most famous tanna'im Judah ha-Nasi- were apparently fluent in Greek as well as more than one version of Hebrew (and it is said both were taught Greek philosophy), with Judah ha-Nasi even 'favoring Greek as the language of the country'.

It is possible the Jesus story was derived from more than the Septuagint (or other Jewish scriptures) and Josephus ie. other philosophies and theologies may well have contributed to the syncretism that is Christianity (eg. Homer as proposed by Dennis McDonald. I wonder about the Hermetics, and other mystery tracts now lost).
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Jax
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Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by Jax »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:50 am
hakeem wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:33 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:19 pm

There are sayings which make no sense in Greek but which make perfect sense in Hebrew or Aramaic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3718, implying that they hail from a Semitic environment. There are Semitisms in the gospels which, while they are not enough to prove that the texts are translations from a Semitic tongue, are enough to show that the authors were probably bilingual, writing in Greek in a Semitic way.
Your argument makes very little sense. The authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles openly made direct references to Jewish writings and copied word for word passages from the books of the Jewish prophets.

It would be expected that certain sayings in Hebrew would not make sense in Greek just like some sayings in English today would not make sense if translated to another language.
I am glad you agree with me. :cheers:
Again, your claim makes little sense. You have contradicted yourself.

I certainly do not agree with you at all since it is known that the Jesus story was derived directly by manipulating the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus.
Once again, I agree with this. :cheers:
I fully agree as well. :cheers:
hakeem
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: The syncretistic origins of Christianity.

Post by hakeem »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:09 pm
hakeem wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:33 am
... the Jesus story was derived directly by manipulating the Septuagint and the writings of Josephus.

The Semitisms in the Christian Bible is a direct result of copying Jewish Scripture and other Jewish writings already written in Greek.
It's possible Jewish scripture not readily available in Greek was also used, or discussions about oral versions of Jewish scripture - the Oral Torah - as part of the development of the Mishnah or Tosefta (or other halacha or aggadah) also contributed to the development of the Jesus story.

Simeon [Shimon] ben Gamliel II and his son -the most famous tanna'im Judah ha-Nasi- were apparently fluent in Greek as well as more than one version of Hebrew (and it is said both were taught Greek philosophy), with Judah ha-Nasi even 'favoring Greek as the language of the country'.

It is possible the Jesus story was derived from more than the Septuagint (or other Jewish scriptures) and Josephus ie. other philosophies and theologies may well have contributed to the syncretism that is Christianity (eg. Homer as proposed by Dennis McDonald. I wonder about the Hermetics, and other mystery tracts now lost).
There is no need to speculate when it is a fact that the very Christian Bible contains the Old and New Testament.

The Old Testament supposedly corroborates the words and actions of the Christian NT Jesus.

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15.27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Isaiah 53.12
........ he was numbered with the transgressors......

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
The Semitism in the Jesus story is due to NT authors using and manipulating Jewish Scripture.

Jesus is a product of prophecy---not history.
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