Jesus Existed: Argument From Pattern of Cults

[ApostateAbe]

Jesus most certainly was reputed to be human per all of the early Christian texts.

JW:
Oh Jesus, how long have you been arguing HJ? Ever heard of Marcion.

You like making comparisons of historical evidence for Jesus to that of other ancients. Please do a search for major institutions close to Caesar, Alexander, Appolonius etc. that thought that they were really spirits who only appeared human while on earth.


Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Yes, I have heard of Marcion, and he is second century. He would be among the first to claim that Jesus was not really a human being, and there is a large number of earlier Christian writings that do claim or seem to assume that Jesus was a human being, including the Pauline epistles, the synoptic gospels, even the gospel of John. The gnostic doctrine of docetism, where Jesus merely appears human but is really purely divine, makes sense only as ancient attempt to reconcile the divinity of Jesus with his humanity. You can have one or the other or a hybrid of the two, but fully both at the same time seemed nonsensical. There is a progression in Christian history from Jesus being purely human (Paul and synoptic gospels) to Jesus being both God and human (gospel of John) to Jesus being purely God (gnostics). And it is an important point that, even when Jesus is purely divine, he still appears to be human. This is the way Christian history makes sense. Mythicists have an interest in reversing this trend, and of course it is difficult to do. In the earliest Christian accounts, Jesus was just a great human being, regardless of what mythicists want. So Jesus most certainly fits the given pattern of cults.

[ApostateAbe]

Ps.82:6, "I said, You are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High." Hmm, maybe wrong Jewish culture...

That's a good counterpoint. It means that the designation of "son of God" applies to humans almost all the time in Jewish culture. Thanks for that.

No. Sorry. It means that you are talking vague bullshit based on nothing but your own opinion. What for example do you know about Metatron? You don't seem to have any temporal focus or content. You appear to be merely peddling comforting assertions.

OK, you may have knowledge that I don't, and I respect that. You are right, I know nothing about Metatron. Was he a reputed human being who reputedly founded a cult?

[ApostateAbe]

Cult with no human founder:

cargo cult of John Frum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

my fellow countryman Christian Rosenkreuz should be added to the list

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It may be the best counterexample I have seen so far. I am unacquainted with the myth of Christian Rosenkreuz. There seems to be some ambiguity of whether or not he existed. If he plainly did not exist, it would be a slam dunk. If he probably did not exist, it would still be very good. My biased opinion is that he probably existed, and maybe my opinion can be shown to be absurd?

[ApostateAbe]

You don't have to look any further than the Old testament for counter-examples - Moses, Abraham etc.

Lao Tse is another good one.

Lao Tse would be a good one, except there seems to be no reason to think Lao Tse never existed. It is the position of no historian of Chinese history, as far as I am aware (maybe you can correct me). I discussed Moses, Abraham and Judaism in the OP.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You don't have to look any further than the Old testament for counter-examples - Moses, Abraham etc.

Lao Tse is another good one.

Lao Tse would be a good one, except there seems to be no reason to think Lao Tse never existed. It is the position of no historian of Chinese history, as far as I am aware (maybe you can correct me). I discussed Moses, Abraham and Judaism in the OP.

What have you actually studied about the Lao Tse legend?

My Eastern Religion prof, who had his specific PhD is the History of Asian Religions, told me just the opposite - that Lao Tse was analogous to Mother Goose. The name literally means "Old Sage" (or more accurately, "Mr. Sage"), and is only a fictive character to whom is attributed a repository of collected folk sayings. The sayings were all originally rhyming couplets, but they originate in different dialects, which means. all by itself, that they have different authors.

This Prof said that it was probably a response of traditional Chinese folk religions to the influx of Buddhism into China. Buddhism had sacred texts. The Tao Te Ching was an attempt to create a home grown sacred text in response, collecting a bunch of adages and wisdom sayings together. These were then, over times, added to with explanatory commentary on the rhyming doublets The stuff the "Old sages" said. "Lao Tse" was, like I said, a Mother Goose figure, or perhaps, analogous to attributing a book of "Old wives tales" to a character named "Old wife."

I haven't talked to any other experts on Chinese religious history, but my impression was that China scholars do *not* take Lao Tse seriously a historical figure.

[ApostateAbe]

You don't have to look any further than the Old testament for counter-examples - Moses, Abraham etc.

Lao Tse is another good one.

Lao Tse would be a good one, except there seems to be no reason to think Lao Tse never existed. It is the position of no historian of Chinese history, as far as I am aware (maybe you can correct me). I discussed Moses, Abraham and Judaism in the OP.

What have you actually studied about the Lao Tse legend?

My Eastern Religion prof, who had his specific PhD is the History of Asian Religions, told me just the opposite - that Lao Tse was analogous to Mother Goose. The name literally means "Old Sage" (or more accurately, "Mr. Sage"), and is only a fictive character to whom is attributed a repository of collected folk sayings. The sayings were all originally rhyming couplets, but they originate in different dialects, which means. all by itself, that they have different authors.

This Prof said that it was probably a response of traditional Chinese folk religions to the influx of Buddhism into China. Buddhism had sacred texts. The Tao Te Ching was an attempt to create a home grown sacred text in response, collecting a bunch of adages and wisdom sayings together. These were then, over times, added to with explanatory commentary on the rhyming doublets The stuff the "Old sages" said. "Lao Tse" was, like I said, a Mother Goose figure, or perhaps, analogous to attributing a book of "Old wives tales" to a character named "Old wife."

I haven't talked to any other experts on Chinese religious history, but my impression was that China scholars do *not* take Lao Tse seriously a historical figure.

I haven't studied anything of Chinese mythology, and you could be right. I will take your word for it. Maybe Lao Tse was like Mother Goose. The other essential element is: was Taoism a cult? What is your opinion.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'd say that yes, Taoism was a cult. Not all cults are personality cults.

Has anyone brought up John Frum yet?

[ApostateAbe]

I'd say that yes, Taoism was a cult. Not all cults are personality cults.

Has anyone brought up John Frum yet?

Yes, someone brought up John Frum, and the problem seems to be that John Frum probably existed.

So, if not a personality cult, what kind of cult do you suppose Daoism was? It could be some other kind of cult, and the counterexample would still carry some weight, but a personality cult as I define and describe in the OP is the relevant type of cult.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

It would be (in my opinion) what Stark and Bainbridge call the "Subculture-Evolution" model of cult formation, but I would suggest that it is an ethnocentric model as well.

[Robert Tulip]

In the earliest Christian accounts, Jesus was just a great human being

That is not true. It is far more plausible to consider the divine visions as the original idea of Christ as conceptual anointed saviour, with the Nazareth stories as later embroidery. Consider the cosmological hymn in Colossians 1: 15-20. Do you think it more plausible that this is early or late in whole or part? In view of the Philo Logos tradition, it looks to me entirely possible that this hymn was very old, with perhaps the mention of the cross added later.

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.