How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
Where are you getting this from Matthew?
As I discussed before: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3804&start=170#p82021 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3804&start=180#p82032
Where in Matthew are you getting this stuff about the tribulation having to do with the disarray before the Pharisees set things in order?
Because, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the end shall come, but not before the Pharisees (with scribes) become leaders of the Jews (and also seen as evil competitors of Jewish Christianity) (Mt 23). When would that happen for Pharisees?
According to Josephus, not before Wars (2.8.14a) was written (75?-78) but before Antiquities (18.1.3) was published (93).
The great tribulation is not coming after the days of flight; wishing for your flight not to be on a Sabbath day or during the winter makes little sense if the tribulation in question is coming after your flight, no matter what. (The γάρ connects the tribulation to the prayer: pray for these small favors because the tribulation will be great.) Rather, the idea is that it will already be bad enough (a "great tribulation," after all), so you may as well pray that it will not be at a time which would make things even harder. In other words, τότε is best thought of as "at that time," the time of the abomination of desolation, the flight to the mountains, and all of that. Likewise, the τότε in verse 23 is also best thought of as "at that time," during the time of tribulation ("those days" which have been cut short), since the cosmic signs and the parousia are said to come immediately after the tribulation, leaving no room for the false prophets if they pop up only (next in order) after the tribulation period.
I already discussed most of that. 'tote', when followed by a verb with a future tense, means "next" and it is rather obvious for most cases, including Mt 24:14. That's how "Matthew means by 'tote' in these cases, not necessarily other authors.

So what is your point? Is it that gMatthew was written soon after gMark? and gMark very soon after the events of 70?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:47 pm to Ben,
Where are you getting this from Matthew?
As I discussed before: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3804&start=170#p82021 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3804&start=180#p82032
Where in Matthew are you getting this stuff about the tribulation having to do with the disarray before the Pharisees set things in order?
Because, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the end shall come, but not before the Pharisees (with scribes) become leaders of the Jews (and also seen as evil competitors of Jewish Christianity) (Mt 23). When would that happen for Pharisees?
I am so lost. I have no idea how you are specifically connecting the woes against the Pharisees of chapter 23 with the prediction of the end in chapter 24.
I already discussed most of that. 'tote', when followed by a verb with a future tense, means "next" and it is rather obvious for most cases, including Mt 24:14. That's how "Matthew means by 'tote' in these cases, not necessarily other authors.
That is not what he means in verses 16, 21, and 23, however, for the reasons that I gave. Nor in 25.1.
So what is your point? Is it that gMatthew was written soon after gMark? and gMark very soon after the events of 70?
My point is to get the interpretation of the text right so that, when the time comes for me to date the gospel of Matthew, I have the correct data in order to help me do so. Right now my dating for our extant text of Matthew is very fuzzy. I am gradually trying to change that, but I need to know what the text is saying before I can do that.
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
I am so lost. I have no idea how you are specifically connecting the woes against the Pharisees of chapter 23 with the prediction of the end in chapter 24.
According to Mt 24:29, the tribulation will go on until the end.
But the end will not be before the Pharisees (& scribes) become leaders of the Jews, which happened between ~75 to 93, according to Josephus' works.
So the tribulation of gMark (about the events of 70) is not the same as the one in gMatthew (which lasted much longer).
That is not what he means in verses 16, 21, and 23, however, for the reasons that I gave. Nor in 25.1.
The 'tote' in verse 16 is not followed by a verb with a future sense. The same for verse 23.
For 25:1, I said it was an odd case. That is because what follows is not an action but a parable. Anyway, replacing here "then" by "at that time" does not make much sense. But "next" for "then" can mean the introduced parable follows the ones at the end of the previous chapter, such as:
"Next, the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom"

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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:17 am to Ben,
I am so lost. I have no idea how you are specifically connecting the woes against the Pharisees of chapter 23 with the prediction of the end in chapter 24.
According to Mt 24:29, the tribulation will go on until the end.
Yes. Mark implies pretty much the same thing.
But the end will not be before the Pharisees (& scribes) become leaders of the Jews, which happened between ~75 to 93, according to Josephus' works.
What I am asking you, for about the third time now, is where Matthew makes this connection. Not you: I can see you making the connection all over the place. Matthew.
So the tribulation of gMark (about the events of 70) is not the same as the one in gMatthew (which lasted much longer).
This is probably the same question as above, just rephrased: where does Matthew tell us how long the tribulation will last? Not you. Matthew.
The 'tote' in verse 16 is not followed by a verb with a future sense. The same for verse 23.
Yes, but my point is that these instances of the adverb are binding these time periods together into one, just like Mark does with "in those days."
Anyway, replacing here "then" by "at that time" does not make much sense.
Sure it does. It makes perfect sense.
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:17 amThe 'tote' in verse 16 is not followed by a verb with a future sense. The same for verse 23.
FYI, that is not true of the verb in verse 23. It is the main verb in the protasis of a future more vivid condition (ἐάν + subjunctive in protasis, future indicative or any kind of imperative in apodosis; the aorist subjunctive with μή in the apodosis is a de facto aorist imperative).
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Forgive me if I have missed it, but are any of these difficulties with Matt 24 / Mark 13 addressed in the patristic writings? Justin's Trypho? Celsus...? Others? When is the earliest evidence of these problematic passages appearing in the record outside the gospels?
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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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to Ben,
Yes. Mark implies pretty much the same thing.
Right, but my point is: it is not the same tribulation. In gMark, it is occurring during the events of 70 CE, caused by the siege & fall of Jerusalem and the massacres of Jews found in his walls.
In gMatthew, the tribulation has to extend all the way to a time when Pharisees & scribes were becoming leaders over the Jews. The start of it is, if 'tote' means "next" in 24:21 (which is the rule when followed by a verb with future tense) after the events of 70.
That tribulation corresponds to the time when Jews of the Diaspora were in disarray without leadership (traditionally coming from Jerusalem and its temple).
If it is the same tribulation in gMatthew as in gMark, then the Pharisees & the scribes would have become leaders among the Jewish communities as soon as the end of 70 (towards the end of the tribulation according to gMark. I see that as very improbable, more so from the evidence from Josephus' works) and gMatthew written soon after (at about the same time than gMark)
Of course, the status of Pharisees (and them being against Christian beliefs) in Mt 23 is part of a fabricated prophecy by "Matthew" put in the mouth of Jesus. Rather, it is about the situation when "Matthew" was writing his gospel. And of course, the end did not happen yet.
What I am asking you, for about the third time now, is where Matthew makes this connection. Not you: I can see you making the connection all over the place. Matthew.
Matthew did not make the connection directly, but as explained already on this posting, indirectly.
This is probably the same question as above, just rephrased: where does Matthew tell us how long the tribulation will last? Not you. Matthew.
Already answered.
Sure it does. It makes perfect sense.
Mt 24:50-24:1
the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,
and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

At that time the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
I do not think "at that time" here makes perfect sense.

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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:24 pmIn gMatthew, the tribulation has to extend all the way to a time when Pharisees & scribes were becoming leaders over the Jews.
Why? What in the text of Matthew makes this so?
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:24 pmThe start of it is, if 'tote' means "next" in 24:21 (which is the rule when followed by a verb with future tense) after the events of 70.
:lol:
If it is the same tribulation in gMatthew as in gMark, then the Pharisees & the scribes would have become leaders among the Jewish communities as soon as the end of 70 (towards the end of the tribulation according to gMark. I see that as very improbable, more so from the evidence from Josephus' works) and gMatthew written soon after (at about the same time than gMark).
So you are basically pitting one part of Matthew against another part of Matthew. The way he treats the Pharisees suggests a late date to you, so you use that late date to (re)interpret the generational prophecy, even if you have to make up rules ad hoc as you go. I think I understand you now, at least. Hard pass, thanks.
At that time the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
I do not think "at that time" here makes perfect sense.
It is completely fine:

New International Version: "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom."

NET Bible: "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom."

International Standard Version: "At that time, the kingdom from heaven will be comparable to ten bridesmaids who took their oil lamps and went out to meet the groom.

You are fabricating difficulties where none exist.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
So you are basically pitting one part of Matthew against another part of Matthew. The way he treats the Pharisees suggests a late date to you, so you use that late date to (re)interpret the generational prophecy, even if you have to make up rules ad hoc as you go. I think I understand you now, at least. Hard pass, thanks.
So when do you put the situation of the Pharisees & scribes as becoming leaders of the Jews?
According to Mt 24:29,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
That has to be within "the tribulation of those days", not after or before.
You are fabricating difficulties where none exist.
I already said the case of 'tote' in 5:1 is odd. It is because it introduces one parable which comes after another one. The other cases are about an action (with verb in the future tense) following by another one (with verb in the future tense).
For Mt 24:21, the NIV, NET, & ISV did not substitute "then" by "at that time".

Let's notice "Matthew" did not repeat "those days" in 24:21, most likely for not linking his great tribulation with the events of 70:

Mk 13:17-19
And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Pray that it may not happen in winter.
For (in) those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be.


To be compared with Mt 24:19-21
And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.


Cordially, Bernard
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