Is Mark 9:1 anti-marcionite?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Is Mark 9:1 anti-marcionite?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:38 am

Mark 9.1: 1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Mark 13.30: 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
According to Marcion, the Jews and anyone who saw Jesus on this earth will not see the kingdom of god.
Could "Mark" have judaized the marcionite Jesus by making him even a failed apocalyptic prophet apparently against his same interest?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Is Mark 9:1 anti-marcionite?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:14 pm

So Tertullian realizes that the Marcionite Jesus had embarrassment to show himself before to sinners:
"For whosoever," says He, "shall be ashamed of me, of him will I also be ashamed."(3) Now to none but my Christ can be assigned the occasion(4) of such a shame as this. His whole course(5) was so exposed to shame as to open a way for even the taunts of heretics, declaiming(6) with all the bitterness in their power against the utter disgrace(7) of His birth and bringing-up, and the unworthiness of His very flesh.(8) But how can that Christ of yours be liable to a shame, which it is impossible for him to experience? Since he was never condensed(9) into human flesh in the womb of a woman, although a virgin; never grew from human seed, although only after the law of corporeal substance, from the fluids(10) of a woman; was never deemed flesh before shaped in the womb; never called foetus(11) after such shaping; was never delivered from a ten months' writhing in the womb;(12) was never shed forth upon the ground, amidst the sudden pains of parturition, with the unclean issue which flows at such a time through the sewerage of the body, forthwith to inaugurate the light(13) of life with tears, and with that primal wound which severs the child from her who bears him;(14) never received the copious ablution, nor the meditation of salt and honey;(15) nor did he initiate a shroud with swaddling clothes;(16) nor afterwards did he ever wallow(17) in his own uncleanness, in his mother's lap; nibbling at her breast; long an infant; gradually(18) a boy; by slow degrees(19) a man.(20) But he was revealed(21) from heaven, full-grown at once, at once complete; immediately Christ; simply spirit, and power, and god. But as withal he was not true, because not visible; therefore he was no object to be ashamed of from the curse of the cross, the real endurance(22) of which he escaped, because wanting in bodily substance. Never, therefore, could he have said, "Whosever shall be ashamed of me." But as for our Christ, He could do no otherwise than make such a declaration;(23) "made" by the Father "a little lower than the angels,"(24) "a worm and no man, a reproach of men, and despised of the people;"(25) seeing that it was His will that "with His stripes we should be healed,"(26) that by His humiliation our salvation should be established. And justly did He humble Himself(27) for His own creature man, for the image and likeness of Himself, and not of another, in order that man, since he had not felt ashamed when bowing down to a stone or a stock, might with similar courage give satisfaction to God for the shamelessness of his idolatry, by displaying an equal degree of shamelessness in his faith, in not being ashamed of Christ. Now, Marcion, which of these courses is better suited to your Christ, in respect of a meritorious shame?(28) Plainly, you ought yourself to blush with shame for having given him a fictitious existence.
http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Tert5.html#AM217


So Mark, Matthew and Luke could have converted that embarrassment in another kind of embarrassment: the delay of the Parusia. But at least, by making so, they could introduce a less embarrassing Jesus (for them) insofar this their new Jesus had no shame to reveal himself to people before Paul.

Curiously, Zahn agrees with me that Mark 9:1 is not in Mcn.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 4356
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Is Mark 9:1 anti-marcionite?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:19 pm

So the episode of Transfiguration just as Mark 9:1 were introduced against Marcion: the Pillars could have an hallucination of Jesus in the glory already before of Paul.

The same marcionites converted the Transfiguration episode in a marcionite episode (Jesus being the only worthy of being heard, differently from Moses and Elijiah).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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